Quiet Build of my Ultima GTR
Discussion
Hello Everybody,
I have been following this Forums posts for quite some time now, about 2 and a half years if I remember correctly...
In this time i have been quietly building my Ultima GTR back in Germany during my summer holidays (When i started, i was still studying abroad, so basically this is a summer holiday build). For that reason, i did not progress very fast, the advantage was that i could think about where i wanted this build to go exactly...
Currently, I am almost finished with a rolling chassis...I will post some pictures of the current Build stage later today as it seems that the upload function in this forum is really Bad
)
Now to the build itself
Engine: C5R Engine block with around 680 HP
Transmission: I have planned on using eather a Dual Clutch System or a Sequential Gearbox with paddle shifters
Body: Heavily Modified Ultima Body with a Carbon Finish
Wheels are Custom built Forgelines with a centerlock system
I have planned various heavy modifications on this car.
The biggest issue right now is the Gearbox...I have no idea what gearbox to fit to the car...It seems that a dual clutch System will be very complicated to adapt to the engine.
From what i have read, sequential gearboxes need constant rebuilds and i do not know if it can be used on a road car due to this disadvantage. Help needed here. For the paddle shifters i have found a system for any sequential gearbox from geartronics.co.uk
I am not an engineer, i finished medicine (probably the wrong choice though), maybe you guys could give me some advice. From what i have talked to Getrag, they have developed a heavy duty 8 gear Dual clutch system which can withstand up to 750NM of torque...If i could get such a system to work and reprogram it, that would probably ideal.
Now, the body will be comletely custom built in Eastern Europe, where a good friend of mine has a large aerospace repair company which fixes most of the commercial airplanes in the country. Also i am planning to try integrate some active aerodynamics elements which can be built easily with aerospace actuators (similar to airplane flaps that are actuated automatically at certain maneuvres) If anybody here has an ultima body for sale, i would be very interested in buying it for use as a template...
The underbody will be completely sealed and we will build an undertray duffuser for this too...Should come close to what Jon Olsson is building there
I hope this post is not overkill, but currently i am confronting myself with more questions than i can handle myself, especially since i do not have extended mechanical knowledge...
I have been following this Forums posts for quite some time now, about 2 and a half years if I remember correctly...
In this time i have been quietly building my Ultima GTR back in Germany during my summer holidays (When i started, i was still studying abroad, so basically this is a summer holiday build). For that reason, i did not progress very fast, the advantage was that i could think about where i wanted this build to go exactly...
Currently, I am almost finished with a rolling chassis...I will post some pictures of the current Build stage later today as it seems that the upload function in this forum is really Bad
)Now to the build itself
Engine: C5R Engine block with around 680 HP
Transmission: I have planned on using eather a Dual Clutch System or a Sequential Gearbox with paddle shifters
Body: Heavily Modified Ultima Body with a Carbon Finish
Wheels are Custom built Forgelines with a centerlock system
I have planned various heavy modifications on this car.
The biggest issue right now is the Gearbox...I have no idea what gearbox to fit to the car...It seems that a dual clutch System will be very complicated to adapt to the engine.
From what i have read, sequential gearboxes need constant rebuilds and i do not know if it can be used on a road car due to this disadvantage. Help needed here. For the paddle shifters i have found a system for any sequential gearbox from geartronics.co.uk
I am not an engineer, i finished medicine (probably the wrong choice though), maybe you guys could give me some advice. From what i have talked to Getrag, they have developed a heavy duty 8 gear Dual clutch system which can withstand up to 750NM of torque...If i could get such a system to work and reprogram it, that would probably ideal.
Now, the body will be comletely custom built in Eastern Europe, where a good friend of mine has a large aerospace repair company which fixes most of the commercial airplanes in the country. Also i am planning to try integrate some active aerodynamics elements which can be built easily with aerospace actuators (similar to airplane flaps that are actuated automatically at certain maneuvres) If anybody here has an ultima body for sale, i would be very interested in buying it for use as a template...
The underbody will be completely sealed and we will build an undertray duffuser for this too...Should come close to what Jon Olsson is building there
I hope this post is not overkill, but currently i am confronting myself with more questions than i can handle myself, especially since i do not have extended mechanical knowledge...
Gearboxes are the only thing that IMHO are a pain in the Back to sort out. Basically there isn't a cheap good option, only several compromises... To get the best out of your engine you need the right ratios, and that's hard to get without spending allot of money. Good luck with the build..
Now here's a link to the uploaded picture album on photobucket...
This is the stage i was at about 6 months ago i suppose...
http://s1099.photobucket.com/albums/g389/Philsrb/G...
This is the stage i was at about 6 months ago i suppose...
http://s1099.photobucket.com/albums/g389/Philsrb/G...
Anyone have suggestions regarding the big big problem i have with the transmission?
As far as i could digg into the subject, adapting a PDK or any dual clutch system is
practically impossible for an amateur builder as there is no controller which can be programmed to do the job...
Now, the other way to go would be a sequential Gearbox...
I have also found an electric kit which can be mounted on any sequential gearbox to add paddle shifters.
What about the clutch? Will it be used only to get into 1st gear and drive off, will it disappear completely or what about it (i know the question sounds stupid, but wikipedia and all other information sources do not specify the exact way of operation)?
Second to all, is it possible to run this type of gearbox on a streetcar without having to repair it all the time?
For me, in terms of reliability, it would be alright if i had to do some small repairs after let's say around 20.000km as i do not believe i will make 20.000 in less than 2-4 years...
As far as i could digg into the subject, adapting a PDK or any dual clutch system is
practically impossible for an amateur builder as there is no controller which can be programmed to do the job...
Now, the other way to go would be a sequential Gearbox...
I have also found an electric kit which can be mounted on any sequential gearbox to add paddle shifters.
What about the clutch? Will it be used only to get into 1st gear and drive off, will it disappear completely or what about it (i know the question sounds stupid, but wikipedia and all other information sources do not specify the exact way of operation)?
Second to all, is it possible to run this type of gearbox on a streetcar without having to repair it all the time?
For me, in terms of reliability, it would be alright if i had to do some small repairs after let's say around 20.000km as i do not believe i will make 20.000 in less than 2-4 years...
There are not many options for a sequential transaxle box available.
The experience I have with Ricardo, (sequential box for Porsche) recommend rebuilt every 8-10000 km. Others will not be very different. (10k for a used one)
Cima makes a nice box too which can handle the power. (18K)
If you really have a budget you could go to xtrac. They have a few transaxle sequential boxes. (+30k)
On top of that, it will be almost mpossible to run the car without earpluggs.
The experience I have with Ricardo, (sequential box for Porsche) recommend rebuilt every 8-10000 km. Others will not be very different. (10k for a used one)
Cima makes a nice box too which can handle the power. (18K)
If you really have a budget you could go to xtrac. They have a few transaxle sequential boxes. (+30k)
On top of that, it will be almost mpossible to run the car without earpluggs.
I know for sure that a GT2 gearbox can be modified to be sequential, wouldnt it be possible to run it with angled gears instead of straight ones for the noise issue? and how about the reliability when installing a paddle shifting system such as the one geartronics offers?
they claim that gear change errors can be avoided to a great extent...wouldnt that allow longer maintenance intervals?
i really have to find a solution quickly because i cannot put the engine on the chassis without that damn box...
they claim that gear change errors can be avoided to a great extent...wouldnt that allow longer maintenance intervals?
i really have to find a solution quickly because i cannot put the engine on the chassis without that damn box...
Well if you really have a budget to do that, then go to Holinger. As far as I remember they do a GT2 conversion for about 20k, that is without the price of the box off course.
As far as synchronised sequential, the only option to my knowledge would be Cima.
Also remember you will need about two engines to get the shifting and power cutoff timing right. This will be tricky with a synchronized sequential box too.
Best thing to do is to use the clutch in combination with the gear change. I doubt if you would feel the difference with full throttle gear changes. This would also greatly improve lifespan of the dogs.
As far as synchronised sequential, the only option to my knowledge would be Cima.
Also remember you will need about two engines to get the shifting and power cutoff timing right. This will be tricky with a synchronized sequential box too.
Best thing to do is to use the clutch in combination with the gear change. I doubt if you would feel the difference with full throttle gear changes. This would also greatly improve lifespan of the dogs.
You might consider using an automatic transmission.... i know, i know, you're thinking, no way! But, modern auto trannys have a lockup clutch that is usable in ALL forward gears, and when driven by a big engine, you can really just use the torque converter to get moving, then lock up the clutch. The big advantage? Aftermarket controllers exist (complete with "manual paddle shifters") so you can add one of these boxes to any engine. I think it would be a factor of 3 easier than trying to go to a Dual clutch manual, or going towards a noisy, low durability race fully sequential box.
if you get a chance, drive something like the latest 8 spd merc and see what you think to the transission ?
if you get a chance, drive something like the latest 8 spd merc and see what you think to the transission ?
Remember that we need to invert the Porsche transmission and I am not sure it is possible to invert an auto.
I am unaware of an another auto trans-axle that will fit.
Many of us on here have tried to come up with a "better" transmission than the G50 Porsche with no great luck.
If you go to an Audi engine and DSG/PDK trans you will still have major problems with the software.
Paul
I am unaware of an another auto trans-axle that will fit.
Many of us on here have tried to come up with a "better" transmission than the G50 Porsche with no great luck.
If you go to an Audi engine and DSG/PDK trans you will still have major problems with the software.
Paul
Hello,
Thanks for your replies...I personally have a Cayenne S and a CL63 so i know how the transmissions feel...I jsut never thought it would be possible or recommendable to fit an automatic Tranny to an ultima gtr...Has anybody done this? What about the fitment? aren't those much bigger and heavier than standard transmissions?
And do they withstand the immense torque generated by the C5R?
I would be interested to find out more about both solutions (automatic and sequential)
A GT2 transmission with the modifications for sequential costs around 13.000€ in germany which i am sure of...I just don't know anything about the terminology...If i have a sequential gearbox with paddle shifters, what do i use the clutch for? only for driving off with the car in 1st gear or do you actually need to actuate the clutch when shifting with the paddle shifter?
Regards
Phil
Thanks for your replies...I personally have a Cayenne S and a CL63 so i know how the transmissions feel...I jsut never thought it would be possible or recommendable to fit an automatic Tranny to an ultima gtr...Has anybody done this? What about the fitment? aren't those much bigger and heavier than standard transmissions?
And do they withstand the immense torque generated by the C5R?
I would be interested to find out more about both solutions (automatic and sequential)
A GT2 transmission with the modifications for sequential costs around 13.000€ in germany which i am sure of...I just don't know anything about the terminology...If i have a sequential gearbox with paddle shifters, what do i use the clutch for? only for driving off with the car in 1st gear or do you actually need to actuate the clutch when shifting with the paddle shifter?
Regards
Phil
BTW...The engine is already finished and standing around in my Garage...That is one of the reasons why i am trying tu hurry up the build...but that gearbox really left my schedual behind badly...
How did Königsegg and other small manufacturers such as Pagani solve the problem? As far as i knew, both had options of Paddle shifted gearboxes...
Is there really no way to get this done somehow (i mean without spending double the amount of the kit and engine for the gearbox)?
How did Königsegg and other small manufacturers such as Pagani solve the problem? As far as i knew, both had options of Paddle shifted gearboxes...
Is there really no way to get this done somehow (i mean without spending double the amount of the kit and engine for the gearbox)?
philsrb said:
BTW...The engine is already finished and standing around in my Garage...That is one of the reasons why i am trying tu hurry up the build...but that gearbox really left my schedual behind badly...
How did Königsegg and other small manufacturers such as Pagani solve the problem? As far as i knew, both had options of Paddle shifted gearboxes...
Is there really no way to get this done somehow (i mean without spending double the amount of the kit and engine for the gearbox)?
You have answered your own question. When you are charging over £300K for a car then you can afford £30 to £40K for a fancy gearbox per car.How did Königsegg and other small manufacturers such as Pagani solve the problem? As far as i knew, both had options of Paddle shifted gearboxes...
Is there really no way to get this done somehow (i mean without spending double the amount of the kit and engine for the gearbox)?
Paul
I may have found a solution...
Spoke to a guy from porsche, he told me that a standard gt3 box can be modified easily to be sequential, and instead of straight gears one can use hypoid gears which are less noisy...
Supposedly, a properly built sequential Prosche gearbox should not be less reliable than a standard H pattern shifter...again, i am not an expert, this is what i was told...
Spoke to a guy from porsche, he told me that a standard gt3 box can be modified easily to be sequential, and instead of straight gears one can use hypoid gears which are less noisy...
Supposedly, a properly built sequential Prosche gearbox should not be less reliable than a standard H pattern shifter...again, i am not an expert, this is what i was told...
Gassing Station | Ultima | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff