Anyone have experience with this turbo upgrade?

[techspy]

I am considering this upgraded turbo. http://home.netcom.com/%7Ewceng/esprit/turbo.html Basically I am interested in this for 2 reasons, less lag and more efficiency(less heat). Anyone have any personal experience with this one? Or for that matter, any other recommendations?

John
94 S4
http://hometown.aol.com/oneshotcop/myhomepage/profile.html

[feffman]

John:

WC Engineering's turbos are very well done. John Welch, WC's owner is one of the more knowledgable people I know for 4-cylinder Esprits.

YOu may wnat to talk to he or Mike Firdman (www.MichaelsMotorsports) about a n adjustable intake cam gear as well to compliment the turbo.

Mark Pfeffer

[madmike]

I have been told by several people, do NOT go with the ceramic ball bearing turbos. They are more fad than anything, and when that bearing goes, it explodes, sending little bits of ceramic shrapnel throught your turbo. You don't recondition it, you replace the whole thing. There are other turbo upgrade solutions that will fulfill your needs that don't have a ceramic bearing.

Also, with regards to the adjustable cam, you may be better off saving some bucks and just installing the euro-spec cam. The older your car gets, the more emissions restrictions are relaxed. Your car is 10 years old, and more than likely, you would pass your test with the euro-spec cam in place, rendering an adjustable cam moot. I'm having this installed as we speak.

I'm also told swapping the cams isn't very hard (I understand you do a lot of your own work) so you're probably talking an afternoon of cam swapping should your car not pass this time out.

Food for thought.

Mike

[techspy]

Thanks for the info Mike. One of the main reasons I was looking at this unit is that it is a direct replacment without any modifications. Do you have any suggestions on any other options that would be basically a direct replacment?

John
94 S4
http://hometown.aol.com/oneshotcop/myhomepage/profile.html

[madmike]

Yep, call TEC. They have a bolt in T3/4 hybrid that is a beast. They can also customize certain parameters for you (such is the vanes, etc.) to either maximize boost or minimize lag.

Here is one of their bolt-ins for the Esprit:

www.turboengineering.com/upgrade_bolt-in_applications/import/lotus.html

Mike

[techspy]

Thanks Mike. I will give them a call as well this week. Any idea how the price compares to the ceramic unit?

John
94 S4
http://hometown.aol.com/oneshotcop/myhomepage/profile.html

[madmike]

Nope, but I bet they do

Smartass Mike

[rlearp]

I've used both ball bearing and oil bearing turbos, not on an Esprit, but another turbo four. I didn't notice any perceptable difference in spool up or response between the two of identical trim. Neither did the dyno or quarter mile time. However, the ball bearing unit will last a lot longer and take a lot of abuse. That being said, I've not warn any oil bearings units out and I gave them a lot of abuse on the strip. Needless to say I'm sticking with my oil bearings.

I'm in the middle of putting a T3/04E hybrid on my 90
SE this week and can probably have dyno results next week. I'm in the middle of the install but have to do some travel thus I'm short on time. Anyhow, if you can wait that long I might have some comparison numbers before and after for you, I always dyno my changes. I'll also have a perfectly good orignal turbo for sale if someone wants to use it for a core upgrade. I'll post more on that later.

R

>> Edited by rlearp on Sunday 9th May 21:12

[techspy]

Sounds great. I would realy be interested in any differences you notice. So what advantages are you hoping for with the upgrade? Less lag, more boost, less heat?

John
94 S4

[JeffYoung]

Don't want to speak for Ron, but I've seen the car and turbos and the new one looks great. I think the general idea is slightly higher boost but also more sustained boost. The standard turbo in our cars (I have a 93.5 SE) gets heat soaked and then I only pull .5 bar. Ron's trying to solve that problem.

Jeff

[madmike]

That's precisely the problem Jeff, which is why a lot of folks who buy the hotter chips only see their boost spike up for a moment, only during ideal conditions (temp), or both.

That's what I love most about my T3/4, is that I get to bury my boost needle over and over again, and only in certain conditions does it freeze at .5, and usually only for a short while.

Mike

[techspy]

Thats exactly what I am looking for Mike, sustained boost without maxing the turbo out, ie: heat soak. With the high torque chip, I am hitting exactly 1 bar of boost, but I am sure that is reaching the maximum limits of the turbo and it is getting pretty hot at that point. I really don't want more boost, just less lag and more efficiency at that boost. Are you having any cutom work done to the vanes or are you pretty much leaving it stock?

John
94 S4

[madmike]

techspy said:

Thats exactly what I am looking for Mike, sustained boost without maxing the turbo out, ie: heat soak. With the high torque chip, I am hitting exactly 1 bar of boost, but I am sure that is reaching the maximum limits of the turbo and it is getting pretty hot at that point. I really don't want more boost, just less lag and more efficiency at that boost. Are you having any cutom work done to the vanes or are you pretty much leaving it stock? John 94 S4

Sorry, guess my previous post was confusing. My PO did the turbo upgrade years ago. I am doing the euro-spec cam.

I am running the 330HP chip...1.2 bar. And the turbo handles it quite nicely. Like I said, call the folks at TEC...you tell them what you want and they'll work with you. They also did Mark's S4 before he sold if, IIRC. May ask them what they did for him.

[FJ40]

I am thinking of a turbo upgrade for my V8. Does anyone have results of the reflowed T25 units that are available?

Dan

[rlearp]

Hi Techspy,

You are correct, what we want is more air and at a lower discharge temperature. Despite info on another thread, compressors are rated differently in efficency and you want to make sure you're using a given compressor properly by looking at the compressor map and see what you're asking of it.

The air compression process in the turbo is not adiabatic, or 100% efficient. Therefore, the air gets heated up in addition to what occurs due to compression. At the flow levels we're talking about for a modifided engine (chip, exhaust, etc) the stock compressor is only around 55-58% efficent, therefore, about 40% of the shaft work we're putting into the turbocharger is lost to irreversable processes, i.e., heat. Thus, our compressor is not as good as it could be. There are lots of engineering papers around where these thigns are explored, many come around the time of WWII whilst investigating forced induction aircraft engines, check them on the web, they're interesting reading.

By contrast the compressor I've picked will be operating at about 75% efficiency with a more flow. Lots of work goes into making efficent compressors, particularily the compressor wheel and vane shapes and the differences do pay off. Of course, I do expect to see some responsiveness drop off on the low end, particularily around 2200-3000, but we'll see what happens in practice. The stock Lotus turbo, in my opinion, has great responsivness but is a little undersized.

I'll let you know, if it isn't any good I won't stick with it and we'll try something else.

Ron

[techspy]

Ron,
I spoke to Jim at TEC and I would probably go with the stage 2 setup. He said it should lower the temp a bit s well. I have definatly decided that I am not willing to go with the ball bearing turbo for the price difference and performance gains, if any. Half the price, 2 day order time as opposed to 2-3 months for the ceramic unit at WC. Anyway, keep me informed on how yours turns out.
By the way, you are near Raleigh right?

John
94 S4


>> Edited by techspy on Monday 10th May 17:25

[rlearp]

If you can get some info on compressor trim etc. I can maybe help with some info. I'm in Raleigh,

Ron

[techspy]

The part number he gave me is 103112048m, but I didn't see it on their website. By the way, I sent you an email about your gauge replacment.

John
94 S4

[squelch]

madmike said:

I have been told by several people, do NOT go with the ceramic ball bearing turbos. They are more fad than anything, and when that bearing goes, it explodes, sending little bits of ceramic shrapnel throught your turbo. You don't recondition it, you replace the whole thing. There are other turbo upgrade solutions that will fulfill your needs that don't have a ceramic bearing. Mike

Mike:
Although I can appreciate peoples position for a less expensive turbo upgrade, it is statements like this one that bother me...
I have been using and suppling ceramic ball bearing turbos for almost 15 years and for the last 5 years on Esprits. In all of the work that I have done, and all of the business that I have worked with none of us have ever actually seen ANY failures of an annular contact cermaic ball bearing turbo.

I can also state that in 15 years I have never had a ceramic BB turbo returned for repairs due to failure of a bearing or shaft, I have had to replace seals, but after time that is needed on any turbo.

In addition the statement that they are not servicable is totally false. The shaft can be pressed out of the bearing, and the bearing removed from the housing.


Again, I can fully understand the finiancial side and economy of a standard bushing turbo, we at WC Engineering believe that the BEST match to the engine happens to use a ceramic BB center section. If we had a standard bushing unit that performed as well, we would offer it, but we don't. Many people have been pleased with upgrades offered by other shops, and we have even helped with their selections, but we will only sell a product that we are confident that we can stand behind 100 %.




Mike:
To perpetuate incorrect information about a product without the facts is misleading to others.

To anyone considering a turbo upgrade, do your research, and evaluate your real needs, your budget, the future of the car, then decide.

Oh.. yea.. I do actually have about a 2 month back log on turbos for the Esprit and I have deposits in for 3 when the back log is cleared... must be a reason...