MGF/Z3 buying advice?
Discussion
I posted a couple of weeks ago as I was after a sporty convertible/coupe to enjoy for the summer before handing it on to my father to enjoy in his retirement, as my wife and I are emigrating to Canada in August. At the time, I was thinking about something like an Alfa GTV V6 or Fiat Coupe Turbo, as that would meet my performance requirements. I was even considering something like an XK8 or a Mercedes SL but in retrospect, my father wouldn't really use that level of performance and might baulk at the fuel consumption. Also, buying something that was that expensive new on a budget could be a complete disaster!
We have now decided to keep my Impreza WRX Wagon for a bit longer as it is paid off and change my wife's Fiat 500 instead, so high performance isn't such an issue any more for me. We like the idea of a convertible and something simple that would be affordable to run and not too expensive to buy would be perfect.
I've already owned an MX-5, so want to try something different and I've heard the MR2 is excellent but it doesn't really do it for me. I've always liked the idea of an MGF, as it's British designed and built. I like to try different configurations and have never had a mid-engined car. As an automotive engineering graduate, I like the idea of the hydrogas suspension too. I actually worked at an MG Rover dealer a few years ago and would have been tempted if a nice VVC had come in part exchange but it didn't so I bought an MX-5 instead! I had a short drive in a VVC which felt fairly lively and had a nice ride (I also drove a TF but didn't like the hard suspension and prefer the styling of the F). Looking in the classifieds, I could get quite a tidy, late, low mileage VVC for about £3k, which seems quite reasonable and some of them even have hardtops which would be better if the car was going to be left outside for any length of time in the winter. What puts me off a bit is the number of cars that we had coming into the workshop with problems. Leaks, electrical problems, head gaskets etc and the build quality doesn't seem to be up to Germanic/Japanese standards either. Having said that, there are also lots of high mileage cars in the classifieds, so some people must have used them and not had too many problems. Are they really that bad or can they be reliable if maintained properly?
The other option is a Z3. Better build quality and more toys (like an electric hood for instance. I understand that the 1.9 isn't that great but a 2.2 Sport (with a 6-pot) seems quite appealing. I understand that the suspension is derived from the E30 3-Series of which I owned a 325i Convertible. The 325i didn't have great handling but I imagine in a smaller, lighter car, it would be OK and I like BMW's silky 6-pot engines. The only problem is the price, as the cheapest ones seem to be about £6k. Twice the price! Is the BMW really worth the premium or should I go for an MG?
I don't want to leave my father with a money pit and although something like an Elise would be great, the cheapest ones are still quite expensive and I think my father would find it too uncompromising in terms of comfort and ingress/egress!
Any tips particularly on the MG or Z3 would be welcome!
We have now decided to keep my Impreza WRX Wagon for a bit longer as it is paid off and change my wife's Fiat 500 instead, so high performance isn't such an issue any more for me. We like the idea of a convertible and something simple that would be affordable to run and not too expensive to buy would be perfect.
I've already owned an MX-5, so want to try something different and I've heard the MR2 is excellent but it doesn't really do it for me. I've always liked the idea of an MGF, as it's British designed and built. I like to try different configurations and have never had a mid-engined car. As an automotive engineering graduate, I like the idea of the hydrogas suspension too. I actually worked at an MG Rover dealer a few years ago and would have been tempted if a nice VVC had come in part exchange but it didn't so I bought an MX-5 instead! I had a short drive in a VVC which felt fairly lively and had a nice ride (I also drove a TF but didn't like the hard suspension and prefer the styling of the F). Looking in the classifieds, I could get quite a tidy, late, low mileage VVC for about £3k, which seems quite reasonable and some of them even have hardtops which would be better if the car was going to be left outside for any length of time in the winter. What puts me off a bit is the number of cars that we had coming into the workshop with problems. Leaks, electrical problems, head gaskets etc and the build quality doesn't seem to be up to Germanic/Japanese standards either. Having said that, there are also lots of high mileage cars in the classifieds, so some people must have used them and not had too many problems. Are they really that bad or can they be reliable if maintained properly?
The other option is a Z3. Better build quality and more toys (like an electric hood for instance. I understand that the 1.9 isn't that great but a 2.2 Sport (with a 6-pot) seems quite appealing. I understand that the suspension is derived from the E30 3-Series of which I owned a 325i Convertible. The 325i didn't have great handling but I imagine in a smaller, lighter car, it would be OK and I like BMW's silky 6-pot engines. The only problem is the price, as the cheapest ones seem to be about £6k. Twice the price! Is the BMW really worth the premium or should I go for an MG?
I don't want to leave my father with a money pit and although something like an Elise would be great, the cheapest ones are still quite expensive and I think my father would find it too uncompromising in terms of comfort and ingress/egress!
Any tips particularly on the MG or Z3 would be welcome!
I know nothing about MGFs so can only talk about Z3s.
1) If insurance is not an issue - buy the biggest possible engine version. 2.2 won't make your fuel or maintenance bills much smaller than 2.8 or 3.0
2) Don't worry about the whole E30 rear suspension story - they handle more than fine
3) Where did you look for those Z3s? Main dealers' forecourts? I've sold a very very good, fully specced 2.8 Z3 last year for £3600.
http://motors.shop.ebay.co.uk/Cars-/9801/i.html?_n...
1) If insurance is not an issue - buy the biggest possible engine version. 2.2 won't make your fuel or maintenance bills much smaller than 2.8 or 3.0
2) Don't worry about the whole E30 rear suspension story - they handle more than fine
3) Where did you look for those Z3s? Main dealers' forecourts? I've sold a very very good, fully specced 2.8 Z3 last year for £3600.
http://motors.shop.ebay.co.uk/Cars-/9801/i.html?_n...
Can't believe there's only been one reply to this thread!
I own a '97 F VVC. I've got no problem with leaks on mine, nor any electrical problems, infact I don't know of any that have had electrical problems really. As for build quality, mine is a low milage (57k miles) car so there's not much wear, but it seems to be put together as well as my MX-3 -- so good, but not great. They're also seriously fussy about tyres, one which runs on mismatched chinese comedy tyres will drive dangerously badly, but one on say... Toyo T1-R's will feel 100 times better.
I think the HGF problem is blown completely out of proportion really, a few quid spent on a low level coolant alarm and remote thermostat goes a long way to 'curing' the problem. Though that said, a bit of a problem with them is the steel underbody coolant pipes which corrode and lead to leaking coolant, but S/S replacements are cheap and should outlast the life of the car. Improper bleeding of the coolant system can lead to localised overheating and then HGF, and many are run on water instead of coolant.
They're a great car. Buy one, be prepared to spend 200/300 quid on preventative maintenance and it should be as reliable as most 10/15 year old cars. They just need a bit of knowledge and the odd bit of tinkering.
With your budget I'd suggest an MGF Trophy. They're a 2001 model, have got more power (158 bhp vs. 143 bhp), are slightly stiffer and they come with the big discs & AP calipers up front too.
I own a '97 F VVC. I've got no problem with leaks on mine, nor any electrical problems, infact I don't know of any that have had electrical problems really. As for build quality, mine is a low milage (57k miles) car so there's not much wear, but it seems to be put together as well as my MX-3 -- so good, but not great. They're also seriously fussy about tyres, one which runs on mismatched chinese comedy tyres will drive dangerously badly, but one on say... Toyo T1-R's will feel 100 times better.
I think the HGF problem is blown completely out of proportion really, a few quid spent on a low level coolant alarm and remote thermostat goes a long way to 'curing' the problem. Though that said, a bit of a problem with them is the steel underbody coolant pipes which corrode and lead to leaking coolant, but S/S replacements are cheap and should outlast the life of the car. Improper bleeding of the coolant system can lead to localised overheating and then HGF, and many are run on water instead of coolant.
They're a great car. Buy one, be prepared to spend 200/300 quid on preventative maintenance and it should be as reliable as most 10/15 year old cars. They just need a bit of knowledge and the odd bit of tinkering.
With your budget I'd suggest an MGF Trophy. They're a 2001 model, have got more power (158 bhp vs. 143 bhp), are slightly stiffer and they come with the big discs & AP calipers up front too.The F and TF (like the Elise) are particularly prone to head gasket issues with the standard thermostat setup because there is so much pipework between the engine and radiators, leading to odd temperature fluctuations. A PRRT goes a long way towards solving this, although they can have their own issues. I wouldn't buy anything with a 1.8 K-series without budgeting for replacing the head gasket properly if it does go (something like 600 quid, these days).
For what it's worth, my head gasket has just gone, despite meticulous care (at least since I've had the car). You might be lucky, some can do hundreds of thousands of miles without failing, but you might not.
For what it's worth, my head gasket has just gone, despite meticulous care (at least since I've had the car). You might be lucky, some can do hundreds of thousands of miles without failing, but you might not.
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 30th March 23:17
MGF head gaskets usually "go" because of some other problem with the cooling system (ie a coolant leak) that has not been attended to. Fit a low-coolant alarm (£90) and you can easily keep on top of that. They are otherwise no more unreliable than any other European car of that vintage if properly maintained. The mx-5 may be a little more reliable in theory but they tend to be about £1k more than the MGF so you will tend to be picking up an older mx-5 for the same money as an MGF. MG parts are in plentiful supply (apart from the hydragas spheres, which can be picked up 2nd hand on ebay) and there are plenty of specialists around to look after them. A head gasket replacement can be done for about £400 by a specialist, using the new head gasket kit which is vastly improved over the old one.
You could pick up a decent late model F VVC for about £2500 max and put the rest in a kitty for unexpected repairs. I paid £2200 for a V reg VVC with 48k miles at the end of last year and it's been a great little car.
Just a thought - is your Dad young enough to be clambering in and out of low-slung sports cars? ;-)
You could pick up a decent late model F VVC for about £2500 max and put the rest in a kitty for unexpected repairs. I paid £2200 for a V reg VVC with 48k miles at the end of last year and it's been a great little car.
Just a thought - is your Dad young enough to be clambering in and out of low-slung sports cars? ;-)
I know they're LHD but have you thought about the Fiat Barchetta? It had great reviews and they're reasonable money. Again, I know it's FWD but the handling is still rated highly.
I think the Z3 has a big nose and would never trust an MGF and the Barchetta has rarity on its side and probably won't depreciate much now, if at all.
I think the Z3 has a big nose and would never trust an MGF and the Barchetta has rarity on its side and probably won't depreciate much now, if at all.
However well you treat the engine, the K-series will always have a slightly higher chance than other engines of blowing its head gaskets; especially those produced in the years when quality control was at its lowest. If you abuse it (low coolant, high stress from cold, etc.) the chances get much higher.
Can't comment on ownership of the Z3 but I have owned two MG's. An MGF VVC and a TF160, both low mileage one owner FSH cars. I had the HG go on both cars despite watching the levels on an almost daily basis. And when they do go they are not cheap to get fixed, each time I was faced with a bill of around £1k. When they work they are great little cars and excellent value for money but if I was leaving a car for my father to use I would choose the BMW.
I haven't owned a BMW but I have had a poke around and driven a few and compared to the F it is far better built and has a more solid feel to it. Its not quite as chuckable as the F but then if your dad is anything like mine that won't be an issue, he'll want more of a combined sports / cruiser and the Z3 fits that bill far better than the F ever will IMO.
Mind you that said not sure my Dad could do with getting in and out of a low slung sports car, he would probably be more interested in a convertible Saab / Volvo of which there are plenty in this price bracket…..but then he is old!
I haven't owned a BMW but I have had a poke around and driven a few and compared to the F it is far better built and has a more solid feel to it. Its not quite as chuckable as the F but then if your dad is anything like mine that won't be an issue, he'll want more of a combined sports / cruiser and the Z3 fits that bill far better than the F ever will IMO.
Mind you that said not sure my Dad could do with getting in and out of a low slung sports car, he would probably be more interested in a convertible Saab / Volvo of which there are plenty in this price bracket…..but then he is old!
MattW said:
Can't comment on ownership of the Z3 but I have owned two MG's. An MGF VVC and a TF160, both low mileage one owner FSH cars. I had the HG go on both cars despite watching the levels on an almost daily basis. And when they do go they are not cheap to get fixed, each time I was faced with a bill of around £1k.
That's very expensive for a head gasket repair. Mine is being done next week and I'm paying a grand for the head work (including pressure testing and skimming), new belts, an annual service and a full suspension geometry setup. MGF and TF are quite poorly built and will always have a reliability question mark hanging over them.
I don't hear many good things about the Z3, aside from the Z3M, which is a different beast altogether.
You've already had an MX5, which would be the usual suggestion....
Barchettas are LHD only, which is a real PITA in the UK (I've had a LHD Fiat Spider) - so I couldn't recommend one.
MR2s have a weak engine, so they're out, too....
Which leaves something like the Alfa Spider - V6s are rare and reliable, TSparks need a bit more TLC. Stunning looking car which won't depreciate. That's where my money would have gone if I hadn't decided to scratch the MX5 itch.
I don't hear many good things about the Z3, aside from the Z3M, which is a different beast altogether.
You've already had an MX5, which would be the usual suggestion....
Barchettas are LHD only, which is a real PITA in the UK (I've had a LHD Fiat Spider) - so I couldn't recommend one.
MR2s have a weak engine, so they're out, too....
Which leaves something like the Alfa Spider - V6s are rare and reliable, TSparks need a bit more TLC. Stunning looking car which won't depreciate. That's where my money would have gone if I hadn't decided to scratch the MX5 itch.
What's wrong with the MR2's engine?
I think a mk3 MR2 would be my first choice with the OP's buying criteria. As long as he doesn't need a boot, that is. Still he says he doesn't want one, so that doesn't really help.
The Smart Roadster might be worth a look?
I think a mk3 MR2 would be my first choice with the OP's buying criteria. As long as he doesn't need a boot, that is. Still he says he doesn't want one, so that doesn't really help.
The Smart Roadster might be worth a look?
Edited by kambites on Thursday 31st March 09:53
Worries about HGF aside, I briefly owned a MGF and it was a steaming dog turd of a car. I've never driven something that is so badly screwed together and so sensitive to tyres (not an issue considering the cost of Toyo rubber)The HG was fine on mine but that little K Series was such a gutless, whiney little lump of uselessness I have no desire to ever drive anything fitted with one again.
I'm sorry to any owners but anything that MG produced in its final years with maybe the exception of some of the 75 based models was dire.
Laugh you may but it was replaced with an early SLK 230 which has been 100 times better in every respect. I'm sure a MG fan boi will argue that the MGF is a better steer but for that 0.00001% of the time in normal use that it would be better than the big boaty Merc, I'll take my chances with the SLK
I actually looked at a cheap Z3 last week, glossing over the fact it wasn't particularly clean for its age and had the wheez-o-matic 1.9 it felt good. Not the most direct steering in the world but typical BM quality and I'm sure it'd be a fine buy with a big straight 6
I'm sorry to any owners but anything that MG produced in its final years with maybe the exception of some of the 75 based models was dire.
Laugh you may but it was replaced with an early SLK 230 which has been 100 times better in every respect. I'm sure a MG fan boi will argue that the MGF is a better steer but for that 0.00001% of the time in normal use that it would be better than the big boaty Merc, I'll take my chances with the SLK
I actually looked at a cheap Z3 last week, glossing over the fact it wasn't particularly clean for its age and had the wheez-o-matic 1.9 it felt good. Not the most direct steering in the world but typical BM quality and I'm sure it'd be a fine buy with a big straight 6
kambites said:
What's wrong with the MR2's engine?
Seems to be a combination of things which can go wrong - pre-cat degradation, oil starvation, oil pump failure.Wasn't a high point in Toyota's reputation for reliability.
When I was looking for my MX5, I considered an MR2, but was warned off them, particularly at the lower end of the market.
v8will said:
Worries about HGF aside, I briefly owned a MGF and it was a steaming dog turd of a car. I've never driven something that is so badly screwed together and so sensitive to tyres (not an issue considering the cost of Toyo rubber)The HG was fine on mine but that little K Series was such a gutless, whiney little lump of uselessness I have no desire to ever drive anything fitted with one again.
I'm sorry to any owners but anything that MG produced in its final years with maybe the exception of some of the 75 based models was dire.
I think in that case the F you bought was a bit of a turd, because a good one should drive very well. They are very sensitive to tyres which is correct, but everything else you posted just isn't.I'm sorry to any owners but anything that MG produced in its final years with maybe the exception of some of the 75 based models was dire.
I've had 2 MGF's and my brother had one also. Totally one 1.8i and two VVC's.
In terms of build quality, we had no issues with any of them. HG failure is going to be a potential issue. Although only 1 of them suffered it once.
Fairly good on fuel and fun to drive. Certainly fitting to the sports car moniker. The VVC is quite rapid too, Rover claimed 7.0 0-60mph. Clutches are weak though and can easily spin, an uprated clutch does wonders.
I suspect the z3 is ok, but I've only sat in them not driven. Panel caps and interior quality were quite shocking in the ones I have been in.
Suspect the z3 would make a more comfy touring style roadster, compared to the MG's more raw sports car nature. And to match/exceed the performance you'd need to be looking at the bigger engined BMW's.
Both the F and TF have far stiffer chassises than the Z3. Many of the TF's changes can be retro fitted to an F. The F also uses hydrogas suspension which offers fantastic ride quality. The TF uses coils.
In terms of build quality, we had no issues with any of them. HG failure is going to be a potential issue. Although only 1 of them suffered it once.
Fairly good on fuel and fun to drive. Certainly fitting to the sports car moniker. The VVC is quite rapid too, Rover claimed 7.0 0-60mph. Clutches are weak though and can easily spin, an uprated clutch does wonders.
I suspect the z3 is ok, but I've only sat in them not driven. Panel caps and interior quality were quite shocking in the ones I have been in.
Suspect the z3 would make a more comfy touring style roadster, compared to the MG's more raw sports car nature. And to match/exceed the performance you'd need to be looking at the bigger engined BMW's.
Both the F and TF have far stiffer chassises than the Z3. Many of the TF's changes can be retro fitted to an F. The F also uses hydrogas suspension which offers fantastic ride quality. The TF uses coils.
Eunos said:
I think in that case the F you bought was a bit of a turd, because a good one should drive very well. They are very sensitive to tyres which is correct, but everything else you posted just isn't.
Nope. The condition of the car was great compared to any other MG I've sat in or driven. I don't make a habit of buying garbage unless it is either very cheap or has project potential as a daily smoker.Believe me I wanted to like the car and that's why I took the punt, I just ended up being so indifferent to it. No problem selling it on though.
v8will said:
Eunos said:
I think in that case the F you bought was a bit of a turd, because a good one should drive very well. They are very sensitive to tyres which is correct, but everything else you posted just isn't.
Nope. The condition of the car was great compared to any other MG I've sat in or driven. I don't make a habit of buying garbage unless it is either very cheap or has project potential as a daily smoker.Believe me I wanted to like the car and that's why I took the punt, I just ended up being so indifferent to it. No problem selling it on though.
That said, I'm sorry you didn't like yours, as I really enjoyed mine. My brothers was fab, it had a few mods on it and went really well. Not quite CTR pace, but not far off and would easily leave a TF160 in a straight line. Also sounded a cross between a motorbike and a race car.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff