Ferrari 348 - Does anybody know these cars?
Discussion
Hi All,
looking for a decent 348. Does anybody know anything about the following cars?
http://www.charlesofwindsor.co.uk/used_car_Ferrari...
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2011...
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2010...
Bit suspicious of the 30k rebuild on the first one, i'm awaiting reasons and who completed the engine work etc.
Any help appreciated.
Paul
looking for a decent 348. Does anybody know anything about the following cars?
http://www.charlesofwindsor.co.uk/used_car_Ferrari...
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2011...
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2010...
Bit suspicious of the 30k rebuild on the first one, i'm awaiting reasons and who completed the engine work etc.
Any help appreciated.
Paul
Edited by reado10 on Friday 1st April 10:09
Don't know any of them but for what it's worth, they all look very good cars. The last one is very high on price, but you are paying Foskers prices.
For a good 348, ideally with the later (91 onwards but there are exceptions) 2.7 Motronic ignition and middling miles (30-50k) you should be looking at £24 - 26k.
The first one isn't a £30k engine rebuild, it says a £30k ground up restoration, to concourse standard including engine and gearbox, which may simply mean a thorough overhaul. If it is all documented and nothing actually went bang then I would view this is as a positive.
Either way, the 348 is a brilliant car. I have had two and can see me getting another one at some point
For a good 348, ideally with the later (91 onwards but there are exceptions) 2.7 Motronic ignition and middling miles (30-50k) you should be looking at £24 - 26k.
The first one isn't a £30k engine rebuild, it says a £30k ground up restoration, to concourse standard including engine and gearbox, which may simply mean a thorough overhaul. If it is all documented and nothing actually went bang then I would view this is as a positive.
Either way, the 348 is a brilliant car. I have had two and can see me getting another one at some point
Lots of these cars have been neglected. There are many up for sale that look good on the surface but when you dig deeper they are absolute dogs.
I looked around for a 348 for about a year and looked at a dozen cars before I bought a 348TS last year. The car I purchased had over £32k spent on it by the previous owner as he was festidious about it being in top notch condition. This winter I have spent many hours going over the car and cleaning this and that up. What I have realised is that although there was a bit of road dirt and grime on the difficult to reach parts it literally just wiped off. This is because all of the parts that had been slightly corroded had been replaced with nice new powder coated parts. Wishbones, discs, suspenstion, steering rack etc... all replaced.
Some people don't care about the money and just want their cars to be perfect. My advice would be to buy on condition.
Good luck with the search.
I looked around for a 348 for about a year and looked at a dozen cars before I bought a 348TS last year. The car I purchased had over £32k spent on it by the previous owner as he was festidious about it being in top notch condition. This winter I have spent many hours going over the car and cleaning this and that up. What I have realised is that although there was a bit of road dirt and grime on the difficult to reach parts it literally just wiped off. This is because all of the parts that had been slightly corroded had been replaced with nice new powder coated parts. Wishbones, discs, suspenstion, steering rack etc... all replaced.
Some people don't care about the money and just want their cars to be perfect. My advice would be to buy on condition.
Good luck with the search.
Thanks for your helpful reply.
Sorry, probably wasn't very clear. I did realise it wasn't a 30k engine rebuild, just meant I have been led to believe you don't want the engine being rebuilt by just anybody, eg a backstreet.
I am making the move from Boxster's and Elises into my first Ferrari and really like the classic styling of the 348. Tempted with the Targa, is there any pros/cons?
Paul
Sorry, probably wasn't very clear. I did realise it wasn't a 30k engine rebuild, just meant I have been led to believe you don't want the engine being rebuilt by just anybody, eg a backstreet.
I am making the move from Boxster's and Elises into my first Ferrari and really like the classic styling of the 348. Tempted with the Targa, is there any pros/cons?
Paul
It looks like OP needs some basics (that have probably been posted here before) but wasn't there a website with loads of useful information : something like www.the348.com
Edited by johnnyreggae on Thursday 31st March 14:03
reado10 said:
Hi All,
looking for a decent 348. Does anybody know anything about the following cars?
http://www.charlesofwindsor.co.uk/used_car_Ferrari...
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2011...
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2010...
Bit suspicious of the 30k rebuild on the first one, i'm awaiting reasons and who completed the engine worke etc.
Any help appreciated.
Paul
Number 1looking for a decent 348. Does anybody know anything about the following cars?
http://www.charlesofwindsor.co.uk/used_car_Ferrari...
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2011...
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2010...
Bit suspicious of the 30k rebuild on the first one, i'm awaiting reasons and who completed the engine worke etc.
Any help appreciated.
Paul
It likes nice on the surface, but most of these cars do. If i'd spent 30k on a ground up restoration i'd ask them to fit the wheels the correct way round, sort out the broken / collapsed ashtray and repaint the exhaust heatshield at the very least.
Number 2
Very early car
Number 3
Red / Tan - not particularly loved colour combo in the UK. Red / Crema is the one to have IMO
Buy on condition and DO get an independant inspection done by another Ferrari Specialist. THIS IS A MUST
I thought I was observative but wow.. Some good points you have picked up, and that's just from the images.
Any particular reason to advoid the early cars apart from the obvious? What's deemed as early with the 348s?
Any particular reason to advoid the early cars apart from the obvious? What's deemed as early with the 348s?
Candellara said:
Number 1
It likes nice on the surface, but most of these cars do. If i'd spent 30k on a ground up restoration i'd ask them to fit the wheels the correct way round, sort out the broken / collapsed ashtray and repaint the exhaust heatshield at the very least.
Number 2
Very early car
Number 3
Red / Tan - not particularly loved colour combo in the UK. Red / Crema is the one to have IMO
Buy on condition and DO get an independant inspection done by another Ferrari Specialist. THIS IS A MUST
It likes nice on the surface, but most of these cars do. If i'd spent 30k on a ground up restoration i'd ask them to fit the wheels the correct way round, sort out the broken / collapsed ashtray and repaint the exhaust heatshield at the very least.
Number 2
Very early car
Number 3
Red / Tan - not particularly loved colour combo in the UK. Red / Crema is the one to have IMO
Buy on condition and DO get an independant inspection done by another Ferrari Specialist. THIS IS A MUST
My 348 running report: http://www.fgear.tv/forum/showthread.php/3-Ferrari...
And cut and pasted from an old post of mine:
1. Do your research
Visit the 348 website, Ferrarichat,Club Scuderia and of course Pistonheads and read up on the 348. Talk to owners about their cars.
Get to know about the various models. Some have 300bhp whilst the later ones have 320 bhp.
Production numbers are as follows:
348tb = 2,895 - RHD UK = 130
348ts = 4,230 - RHD UK = 261
348spider = 1090 - RHD UK = 68
348GTB = 252 - RHD UK = 14
348GTS = 137 - RHD UK = 15
348GTC = 50 - RHD UK = 8
Total = 8,654
UK RHD = 496
2. Finding a good 348
It's getting harder and harder to find a good one and there's quite a few people actively searching.
No matter where you buy it from, make sure you have a Pre Purchase Inspection done with a compression test.
Some 348's are clocked as are many other models. A few unscrupulous owners tend to disconnect the speedometer which is easily done. Others search ebay for used speedo's.
Service histories are good, but they don't tell you the whole story. You need to see receipts and other paperwork.
Make sure the catalytic converters are both OK. Even with one blown cat, it will pass the mot, so don't rely on the emissions test alone. New cats are expensive and also a bit st.
Prices have gone down considerable. I paid £35,000 for mine 3 years ago. You can get 355's for that sort of money now. The spread is from £18,000 to £35,000 at the moment depending on model, mileage and condition.
3. 348 v 355
The 348 engine is bullet proof if looked after. In comparison the 355's tend to have engine rebuilds and other problems.
I had a chat with one very well know specialist who told me they had done countless 355 engine rebuilds, a few 360 rebuilds, but had never done a 348 rebuild. It's not to say it will never or has never happened, but the chances of it happening are extremely low in comparison to the 355. That's why used 348 engines are half the price of 355 ones.
The 355 has well known manifold problems which need to be replaced. You can get better quality ones from QV London. The 348 don't have this problem.
Valve guides can go on the 355. The 348 doesn't have that problem.
The 348 doesn't have power steering or electrically adjustable suspension like the 355. So less to go wrong.
The 348's gearbox though is a weak point. A few cars have had the gearbox break and parts are getting harder to come by. Rebuild cost is circa £4,000. Later models have less problems due to modifications made by the factory and therefore are stronger.
Electrics can be a pain in the arse sometimes. Hey...it's 1980's Italian electrics. Be lucky you don't electrocute yourself when you sit in it.
Ins summary, both the 348 and 355 need to have the engine taken out. the 355 has the better gearbox, but the 348 has the stronger engine. The 355 revs higher, but the 348 is more revvier.
4. Modding a 348
You have a lot of options here. The 348 is probably the most moddable Ferarri around.
If it hasn't got one already, you'll need a sports exhaust. Tubi, Capristo and X-OST are the most comon ones. Budget between £1,300 & £1,700. half that for used.
The standard 348 wheels are very heavy and 17". I have the 18" F355 magnesium wheels. Lighter and better looking. Other options are the 355 Challenge , 360 challenge wheels.
Used 360 carbon fibre seats are £2,000+. Worth every penny in my opinion. Transforms the driving experience.
Best value for money modification i reckon is the 360 challenge steering wheel. Cost £180 and very cool
As the 355 is basically a 348 body, you can take some bits off that. Bonnet vent mod is around £350 to do.
Carbon interior bits can cost £900. they look good though.
AP Racing brake kit is around £1,800. I never really liked the standard 348/355 brakes (they share the same brakes).
Wheel spacers are a must, especially if you have the 355 wheels. I'm running 15mm at the front and 25mm at the rears.
The standard cats are crap. New set of sports cats by hyper-Flow are around £800. However, if your 348 is pre 1992, you can decat it legally.
5. Running costs
I'm paying £550 per year for insurance with a 5,000 mile limit.
Service cost vary, but this will give you an idea. http://www.verdi-ferrari.com/servicing.htm
Tyres cost around £150 each for Pirelli Pzeros for 355 wheels.
6.I always recommend the following should be done to ensure a reliable and well running 348. Prices are roughly what I paid.
For reliability:
For performance:
First thing you need to do is put it on a rolling road or hub dyno and see how much power the car has. If it has significantly low power, then do a compression test. After you do all the things below, take it back to the same place and do the test again and then compare. I ended up witha significant increase of power of around 10%.
For handling:
The 348 gets a lot of criticism for it's handling. The main problem is because most 348's don't have them refurbished or sorted out. It's very sensitive to change. To get the car at it's best, it's recommended to do the following:
To enhance the driving experience:
Can't think of anything else. I'm sure I've forgotten something.
The above is what I've done to my 348. Obviously you don't need to do everything, but the more you do, the more reliable and the more enjoyable the 348 will be.
Also, as many of the things above are not on the service schedule, they don't get done.
And cut and pasted from an old post of mine:
1. Do your research
Visit the 348 website, Ferrarichat,Club Scuderia and of course Pistonheads and read up on the 348. Talk to owners about their cars.
Get to know about the various models. Some have 300bhp whilst the later ones have 320 bhp.
Production numbers are as follows:
348tb = 2,895 - RHD UK = 130
348ts = 4,230 - RHD UK = 261
348spider = 1090 - RHD UK = 68
348GTB = 252 - RHD UK = 14
348GTS = 137 - RHD UK = 15
348GTC = 50 - RHD UK = 8
Total = 8,654
UK RHD = 496
2. Finding a good 348
It's getting harder and harder to find a good one and there's quite a few people actively searching.
No matter where you buy it from, make sure you have a Pre Purchase Inspection done with a compression test.
Some 348's are clocked as are many other models. A few unscrupulous owners tend to disconnect the speedometer which is easily done. Others search ebay for used speedo's.
Service histories are good, but they don't tell you the whole story. You need to see receipts and other paperwork.
Make sure the catalytic converters are both OK. Even with one blown cat, it will pass the mot, so don't rely on the emissions test alone. New cats are expensive and also a bit st.
Prices have gone down considerable. I paid £35,000 for mine 3 years ago. You can get 355's for that sort of money now. The spread is from £18,000 to £35,000 at the moment depending on model, mileage and condition.
3. 348 v 355
The 348 engine is bullet proof if looked after. In comparison the 355's tend to have engine rebuilds and other problems.
I had a chat with one very well know specialist who told me they had done countless 355 engine rebuilds, a few 360 rebuilds, but had never done a 348 rebuild. It's not to say it will never or has never happened, but the chances of it happening are extremely low in comparison to the 355. That's why used 348 engines are half the price of 355 ones.
The 355 has well known manifold problems which need to be replaced. You can get better quality ones from QV London. The 348 don't have this problem.
Valve guides can go on the 355. The 348 doesn't have that problem.
The 348 doesn't have power steering or electrically adjustable suspension like the 355. So less to go wrong.
The 348's gearbox though is a weak point. A few cars have had the gearbox break and parts are getting harder to come by. Rebuild cost is circa £4,000. Later models have less problems due to modifications made by the factory and therefore are stronger.
Electrics can be a pain in the arse sometimes. Hey...it's 1980's Italian electrics. Be lucky you don't electrocute yourself when you sit in it.
Ins summary, both the 348 and 355 need to have the engine taken out. the 355 has the better gearbox, but the 348 has the stronger engine. The 355 revs higher, but the 348 is more revvier.
4. Modding a 348
You have a lot of options here. The 348 is probably the most moddable Ferarri around.
If it hasn't got one already, you'll need a sports exhaust. Tubi, Capristo and X-OST are the most comon ones. Budget between £1,300 & £1,700. half that for used.
The standard 348 wheels are very heavy and 17". I have the 18" F355 magnesium wheels. Lighter and better looking. Other options are the 355 Challenge , 360 challenge wheels.
Used 360 carbon fibre seats are £2,000+. Worth every penny in my opinion. Transforms the driving experience.
Best value for money modification i reckon is the 360 challenge steering wheel. Cost £180 and very cool
As the 355 is basically a 348 body, you can take some bits off that. Bonnet vent mod is around £350 to do.
Carbon interior bits can cost £900. they look good though.
AP Racing brake kit is around £1,800. I never really liked the standard 348/355 brakes (they share the same brakes).
Wheel spacers are a must, especially if you have the 355 wheels. I'm running 15mm at the front and 25mm at the rears.
The standard cats are crap. New set of sports cats by hyper-Flow are around £800. However, if your 348 is pre 1992, you can decat it legally.
5. Running costs
I'm paying £550 per year for insurance with a 5,000 mile limit.
Service cost vary, but this will give you an idea. http://www.verdi-ferrari.com/servicing.htm
Tyres cost around £150 each for Pirelli Pzeros for 355 wheels.
6.I always recommend the following should be done to ensure a reliable and well running 348. Prices are roughly what I paid.
For reliability:
- Refurb and upgrade alternator with better parts (£40, Parts £65 plus removal & fitting)
- Check alternator bracket and replace if cracked (£30)
- Refurb aircon motor fan in front luggage bay (£40 plus removal and fitting which is very easy)
- Replace OEM tensioners with Hill engineering tensioners (£220)
- Change all belts, cambelt, alternator, air-con. (£90 ??)
- Replace all hoses worth silicon hoses (£120)
- Replace all other hoses ie: oil & fuel etc
- Check fuel hoses for cracks and replace if necessary (they can easily crack if over tightened - £220)
- Replace water pump (Optional. Never heard of a water pump going, but you can never be too careful as it shares the cambelt - Cost £650 new or £200 for the ebay rebuilt version)
- Check and recore/replace radiators as required (Cost £1,000 new or £200 for recored)
- Change radaiator sensor (£9)
- Change oil temprature sensore (£15 for non Ferrari or £75 for Ferrari)
- Check the header tank (water tank) at the bottom for corrosion. Replace/repair as necessary. (Cost me £75 for a used one)
For performance:
First thing you need to do is put it on a rolling road or hub dyno and see how much power the car has. If it has significantly low power, then do a compression test. After you do all the things below, take it back to the same place and do the test again and then compare. I ended up witha significant increase of power of around 10%.
- Use NGK iridium spark plugs
- Replace OEM spark plug leads with Magnecors (£170)
- Do the cam timing (I got an extra 30bhp+ from just doing this)
- K & N air filter (£50)
- Ensure throttle cable is not too loose (doesn't cost anything to do)
- Remove OEM cats and replace with Hyperflows (£800 plus fitting)
- Change the 348 wheels for 355 magnesium or other 18" wheels (£750+)
For handling:
The 348 gets a lot of criticism for it's handling. The main problem is because most 348's don't have them refurbished or sorted out. It's very sensitive to change. To get the car at it's best, it's recommended to do the following:
- Refurb dampers (£60 plus vat plus removal and fitting cost) and change the rubber bits at the ends.
- Replace suspension bushes (Between £500 to £1,000 depending on wether you get OEM rubber or poly bushes - plus fitting and removing is a pain))
- Do a full geometry setup by someone who knows what they are doing (£400 plus £45 for a set of Hill Engineering shims)
- Balance tyres (£40)
- While your at it, have teh wishbones powder coated if necessary (£40)
To enhance the driving experience:
- Get a Tubi, Capristo or X-OST exhaust system (Anywhere from £500 used to £2,000+)
- Carbon sports seats (£2,000)
- 360 Challenge steering wheel (£180)
- Carbon fiber bits for interior (£800 to £2,000+)
- Stripe - option from £350
Can't think of anything else. I'm sure I've forgotten something.
The above is what I've done to my 348. Obviously you don't need to do everything, but the more you do, the more reliable and the more enjoyable the 348 will be.
Also, as many of the things above are not on the service schedule, they don't get done.
I've had my 348 since January last year, and it hasn't let me down once, and that includes a 3000 mile trip around europe to Maranello last year.
They are a pretty solid and reliable car as long as they have been looked after. I think it's a shame that a lot seemingly don't get used very often, the better ones tend to be those that are used regularly.
I wouldn't worry too much about the model year, but buy on condition. I see the mention of £24k-£26k for a decent one above, not sure if prices have dropped slightly since when i bought mine last year, or if i was a bit unlucky as there were not many about at the time, but i'd say that for £24k i struggled to find a decent one and ended up paying a little more. Then again i went to see one that was up for £27k and it was an absolute shed.
What made me decide to go for the one that i did (besides the service history and condition etc) was the fact that the previous 2 owners were both regular members on Club Scuderia, so the history of the car was easily traceable through the Forums and i can tell it had been looked after.
Unfortunately mine is going up for sale in the next couple of weeks, will be very sorry to see it go, but already told the wife that i AM getting another one day :-)
They are a pretty solid and reliable car as long as they have been looked after. I think it's a shame that a lot seemingly don't get used very often, the better ones tend to be those that are used regularly.
I wouldn't worry too much about the model year, but buy on condition. I see the mention of £24k-£26k for a decent one above, not sure if prices have dropped slightly since when i bought mine last year, or if i was a bit unlucky as there were not many about at the time, but i'd say that for £24k i struggled to find a decent one and ended up paying a little more. Then again i went to see one that was up for £27k and it was an absolute shed.
What made me decide to go for the one that i did (besides the service history and condition etc) was the fact that the previous 2 owners were both regular members on Club Scuderia, so the history of the car was easily traceable through the Forums and i can tell it had been looked after.
Unfortunately mine is going up for sale in the next couple of weeks, will be very sorry to see it go, but already told the wife that i AM getting another one day :-)
Edited by chuno on Friday 1st April 08:47
Edited by chuno on Friday 1st April 08:48
Edited by chuno on Friday 1st April 08:49
I cannot identify any of the cars from the ads (two have what seem to be fake number plates and the third doesn't show any). However, I will have history if you can supply a chassis number for any car you're interested in.
I have owned my 348 ts for 11 years and loved every second of it. It has also been 100% reliable (including for various continental trips including several down to Italy) apart from the occasional flat battery.
Jonathan
reado10 said:
...Tempted with the Targa, is there any pros/cons?...
Mostly just that you need to make sure it seals properly. Mine does tend to collect a bit of water at the top of the A pillar after a downpour which then falls in your lap when you open the door!I have owned my 348 ts for 11 years and loved every second of it. It has also been 100% reliable (including for various continental trips including several down to Italy) apart from the occasional flat battery.
Jonathan
Angelis, thats very helpful, thanks. Didn't realise there were that few RHD UK cars. Do many get converted from LHD? I'm assuming the V5 would show the car as an import?
Chuno and Jonathan, thanks again to both of you. Really useful hearing from owners/drivers and not 'experts' that have never been near one. Having owned a few K Series Lotus/Lotii?! you hear so many bad stories, but in honesty, looked after properly, i've never had any trouble. Too many cars are driven hard and only maintained when they stop.
Really itching to find one, but know I need the patience of finding a good one! Is there anybody that would be recommended for a PPI? Is this as crucial as people are saying if you have a fairly grounded mechanical knowledge?
Paul
Chuno and Jonathan, thanks again to both of you. Really useful hearing from owners/drivers and not 'experts' that have never been near one. Having owned a few K Series Lotus/Lotii?! you hear so many bad stories, but in honesty, looked after properly, i've never had any trouble. Too many cars are driven hard and only maintained when they stop.
Really itching to find one, but know I need the patience of finding a good one! Is there anybody that would be recommended for a PPI? Is this as crucial as people are saying if you have a fairly grounded mechanical knowledge?
Paul
reado10 said:
Really itching to find one, but know I need the patience of finding a good one! Is there anybody that would be recommended for a PPI? Is this as crucial as people are saying if you have a fairly grounded mechanical knowledge?
Paul
I didn't bother with a PPI and have very little mechanical knowledge. Perhaps i was just lucky, stupid, or whatever, but i'd say find the car that you like first and then go with your gut feeling at that time.Paul
I was very confident in the car becuase i knew so much about it's history so didn't bother.
And i'm not aware of any LHD to RHD conversions,although i suppose it's possible there could be some, but like you say, will show up on the V5/HPI.
Glad to be of help. :-)
I didn't bother with a PPI for my 348. I was stupid, but fortunatly very lucky as the car turned out to be very good.
I didn't bother to do a PPI whenI purcahsed my Range Rover. I was stupid and unlucky. Only after spending ££££'s have I got it all sorted.
Always always always have a Ferrari checked out by someone who knows that specific model inside out. There are too many expensive things that can go wrong.
I didn't bother to do a PPI whenI purcahsed my Range Rover. I was stupid and unlucky. Only after spending ££££'s have I got it all sorted.
Always always always have a Ferrari checked out by someone who knows that specific model inside out. There are too many expensive things that can go wrong.
From reading previous threads (always useful) and when I was thinking of changing its clear that thats a big question - it depends where the car is as (perhaps unlike the Lotus world) the car usually goes to the inspection and not the other way round ie find a car then find a garage nearby
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