Do you think Land Rover are taking quite a gamble?
Discussion
With their current model line up and Market placement?
If you look back in history, Land Rover made it's success in 3 key markets:
-utility vehicles
-agriculture
-military
Ranging from the humble origins of the 80" Series through the S1-3 pickups and 101FC's.
I know they also entered the luxury sector in the 70's with the RR and the family Market with the Disco and Freelander. But it seems they are moving further and further away from all of these bar the luxury and image sector.
High end Market placement might be good for image and prices. But when (not if) the bubble bursts what will LR have left?
All of their models are a step higher than average affordable family cars, even the FL2. And the new Evoque only re-enforces this upwards climb.
Why have they totally abandoned the companies core products? I know the Defender is still in production, but only for a few markets and the clock is seriously ticking on this out classed model that only really sells on it's heritage value.
I see no problem with having the higher end models and the high profit margin vehicles. But I do think LR have totally missed the boat in the UK and US pick-up and utility truck sector. A sector LR once dominated in home and many export markets.
In the US Jeep sell a serious amount of Wranglers, Ford sell a huge number of F150's. Even Dodge relie on their Ram sales.
UK Market wise, how succesful over the past 10-12 years have L200's, Navara's and Hiluxrs been? The same trucks that are also huge successes in the Australian and Asian markets too.
Am I the only one hoping that in a few years to come new Land Rovers won't be the exclusivity of footballers, the rich and famous and wealthy city slickers? Am I the only one to think that this currently looks likely?
If you look back in history, Land Rover made it's success in 3 key markets:
-utility vehicles
-agriculture
-military
Ranging from the humble origins of the 80" Series through the S1-3 pickups and 101FC's.
I know they also entered the luxury sector in the 70's with the RR and the family Market with the Disco and Freelander. But it seems they are moving further and further away from all of these bar the luxury and image sector.
High end Market placement might be good for image and prices. But when (not if) the bubble bursts what will LR have left?
All of their models are a step higher than average affordable family cars, even the FL2. And the new Evoque only re-enforces this upwards climb.
Why have they totally abandoned the companies core products? I know the Defender is still in production, but only for a few markets and the clock is seriously ticking on this out classed model that only really sells on it's heritage value.
I see no problem with having the higher end models and the high profit margin vehicles. But I do think LR have totally missed the boat in the UK and US pick-up and utility truck sector. A sector LR once dominated in home and many export markets.
In the US Jeep sell a serious amount of Wranglers, Ford sell a huge number of F150's. Even Dodge relie on their Ram sales.
UK Market wise, how succesful over the past 10-12 years have L200's, Navara's and Hiluxrs been? The same trucks that are also huge successes in the Australian and Asian markets too.
Am I the only one hoping that in a few years to come new Land Rovers won't be the exclusivity of footballers, the rich and famous and wealthy city slickers? Am I the only one to think that this currently looks likely?
The rappers and footballers are buying them, so everyone else will want to. This bubble may or may not burst but the thing is, it's making them money and they're a business. When/if it does burst they still have those that need a rugged competent off-roader that will buy nothing else; farmers, land mangers, the military. All those mentioned in the OP.
When I'm a millionaire with my massive estate, I'll buy a twin cab pick up defender. Not a RRS...
Edit for wanting a twin cab LR, as opposed to two hats...
When I'm a millionaire with my massive estate, I'll buy a twin cab pick up defender. Not a RRS...
Edit for wanting a twin cab LR, as opposed to two hats...
Edited by 4Q on Tuesday 5th April 15:31
Edited by 4Q on Tuesday 5th April 15:31
Both old and new incarnations of Freelanders are good volume sellers. The Disco is a well regarded family wagon and sells by the lorry load. The RR Sport appeals to wags and rapperwannabees in equal numbers and don't hang around on the showroom for long. The FFRR is still considered the King of the luxury off roaders and despite being close to replacement, sells for a very healthy profit margin. There is a waiting list for the Evoque.
I think Land Rover sell some old dinosaur of a truck too, but not for much longer as this engineering neglected, choppy riding, preinstalled rust bearing vehicle is about to fall victim to modern regulations. Its replacement is well under way and not before time.
The company is in very healthy state right now, so I'm not sure what the gamble is?
I think Land Rover sell some old dinosaur of a truck too, but not for much longer as this engineering neglected, choppy riding, preinstalled rust bearing vehicle is about to fall victim to modern regulations. Its replacement is well under way and not before time.
The company is in very healthy state right now, so I'm not sure what the gamble is?
to me it looks like they are positioning the brand to hive off the RR badge as the luxury brand like Lexus and LR will stay at the more utility family end.
also despite it being done by other manufacturers they tend to ship the same product world wide, making some of the bottom end models complicated for a road side mechanic in Africa. I know they still ship some models with the tdi engines in, but all of the others have a huge manufacturing base behind them, and only now with Tata there may we see products aimed at certain markets etc. It can't be that difficult to make adapters for chassis so that a variety of engines will fit. plus there is a lot of talk of CKD kits being shipped out to the far east / India were the less efficient but more forgiving / robust engines can carry on.
I hope this is the way they will go anyway.
also despite it being done by other manufacturers they tend to ship the same product world wide, making some of the bottom end models complicated for a road side mechanic in Africa. I know they still ship some models with the tdi engines in, but all of the others have a huge manufacturing base behind them, and only now with Tata there may we see products aimed at certain markets etc. It can't be that difficult to make adapters for chassis so that a variety of engines will fit. plus there is a lot of talk of CKD kits being shipped out to the far east / India were the less efficient but more forgiving / robust engines can carry on.
I hope this is the way they will go anyway.
Mr Will said:
I assume you mean just the first 20 years of their history, and are ignoring the other two thirds of their history?
Not really Will, try the next paragraph down in the OP 
Edit:
I do get your point. That in recent years utility vehicles haven't been their big money spinners. But they where up until the 1990's pretty much. And the only reason they weren't doing so well was because LR never really developed their utility range since the S2. The Market wanted stronger, more power, better mpg and better range. LR answered none of these by introducing the S3. And as capable as the Defender is, it's still under powered, thirsty, limited options, limited engines and has weak axles compared to the competition.
It's become an icon, which is what it sells on today. But there is no denying it's outclassed in pretty much in every metric.
Edited by 300bhp/ton on Tuesday 5th April 15:50
4Q said:
The rappers and footballers are buying them, so everyone else will want to. This bubble may or may not burst but the thing is, it's making them money and they're a business. When/if it does burst they still have those that need a rugged competent off-roader that will buy nothing else; farmers, land mangers, the military. All those mentioned in the OP.
When I'm a millionaire with my massive estate, I'll buy a twin cab pick up defender. Not a RRS...
Edit for wanting a twin cab LR, as opposed to two hats...
The thing is, what rugged 4x4? The Defender won't be around much longer and so far there seems no sight of a replacement. It also is sold in only a few markets. When I'm a millionaire with my massive estate, I'll buy a twin cab pick up defender. Not a RRS...
Edit for wanting a twin cab LR, as opposed to two hats...
Edited by 4Q on Tuesday 5th April 15:31
Edited by 4Q on Tuesday 5th April 15:31
I beleive military sales are also dropping and a lot lower these days.
And it's worth noting, all other high end SUV makers also have product ranges that aren't big engined, poor on fuel, heavy high co2 emitting vehicles. LR don't. If the bottom falls out of the luxury 4x4 Market they'll have almost nothing to offer. Look at what happened to Hummer when they suddenly couldn't sell expensive, gas gussling 4x4's?
Mr Will said:
I assume you mean just the first 20 years of their history, and are ignoring the other two thirds of their history?
The gamble would be trying to get back into the commercial sector when they've ignored development and have a certain reputation (justified or not) for unreliability. The same goes for most foreign markets. I love Landies but realistically Toyota does it better, albeit without the character.
The military is out because no one wants thin skinned vehicles anymore and farmers and the (genuine*) utility lot aren't interested because of price and reliability.
Now that the D4 is about and hopefully building on the reliability improvements made towards the end of the D3s life there's a chance for LR to get back into the commercial sector.
*By genuine utility I don't mean the SUV lot, I mean pick ups.
I like the fact LR are going for the luxury market, because they're losing out big time with the junk that is the Defender. No-one can get away with selling tarted up 60's junk like the Defender. They're not even reliable when compared to something like an old Shogun or Trooper. Even the cheap-ass Diahatsu Fourtrak of the 90's was a better offroader, defeated only by it's steel body that rotted.
I grew up in the 80's rattling about in my Dad's S11A Lightweight. But that was 30 years ago, and LR shouldn't be trying to sell what is essentially the same vehicle in the 10's.
I grew up in the 80's rattling about in my Dad's S11A Lightweight. But that was 30 years ago, and LR shouldn't be trying to sell what is essentially the same vehicle in the 10's.
GKP said:
Both old and new incarnations of Freelanders are good volume sellers. The Disco is a well regarded family wagon and sells by the lorry load. The RR Sport appeals to wags and rapperwannabees in equal numbers and don't hang around on the showroom for long. The FFRR is still considered the King of the luxury off roaders and despite being close to replacement, sells for a very healthy profit margin. There is a waiting list for the Evoque.
I think Land Rover sell some old dinosaur of a truck too, but not for much longer as this engineering neglected, choppy riding, preinstalled rust bearing vehicle is about to fall victim to modern regulations. Its replacement is well under way and not before time.
The company is in very healthy state right now, so I'm not sure what the gamble is?
Increasing fuel prices? A big 4x4 will never be good on fuel. When many cars are claiming 50-60mpg LRs are still in the 20's. I think Land Rover sell some old dinosaur of a truck too, but not for much longer as this engineering neglected, choppy riding, preinstalled rust bearing vehicle is about to fall victim to modern regulations. Its replacement is well under way and not before time.
The company is in very healthy state right now, so I'm not sure what the gamble is?
Will an average family be able to afford to run such vehicles in the future? Even more so if road tax keeps increasing too.
And the gamble isn't the now ..... It's the when.
As a life long LR fan I'm hugely pleased they are doing well. I just worry that they are getting further and further from reach.
Eg
In 2003 a well specced 5 door Freelander could be had for about £19. I reckon today you'd be looking at more like £28-30k.
In 03 I could see people considering the Freelander over things like an Astra of Focus as price wise they weren't sonar away. I think (although haven't checked) that this price gap has increased.
A £30k Freelander is upto 50% more expensive over only an 8 year period.
From what I've seen the Evoque is coming in at around £44k. Is it going to replace the FL in the line up?
And I know they are selling at the moment. But can they maintain this sales volume?
Landrover seem to be doing the right thing. There is bucket loads of Disco 3/4, RR Sport and Freelander on the roads and very few of them ever see off road at all.
I do question the logic is introducing 2WD models, effectively undermining their biggest USP, unrivalled off road ability. I know I wouldn't buy into it. The better gamble would be invest now in lightweight construction and (shudder) next gen hybrid tech.
'New' Defender will be key, it has a big job to do and quite a spread of markets to aim at. I think the military market will be somewhat limited compared to what it once was but there is still agricultural and utility uses. What LR can't afford to do is push the price up. The current Defender is horrendously overpriced for what it is. Certainly iconic but badly built and outclassed 20 years ago.
The Range Rover is a genius product and I can only hope it continues to be top dog for many years to come.
I do question the logic is introducing 2WD models, effectively undermining their biggest USP, unrivalled off road ability. I know I wouldn't buy into it. The better gamble would be invest now in lightweight construction and (shudder) next gen hybrid tech.
'New' Defender will be key, it has a big job to do and quite a spread of markets to aim at. I think the military market will be somewhat limited compared to what it once was but there is still agricultural and utility uses. What LR can't afford to do is push the price up. The current Defender is horrendously overpriced for what it is. Certainly iconic but badly built and outclassed 20 years ago.
The Range Rover is a genius product and I can only hope it continues to be top dog for many years to come.
v8will said:
'New' Defender will be key, it has a big job to do and quite a spread of markets to aim at.
I don't know why they don't re-release the Disco 1 as the new Defender.It's the right size and capability. I'm sure they could make a pick-up version easily enough.
Hell they could even throw some rust proofing at it this time.
Good idea? Non?
RicksAlfas said:
I don't know why they don't re-release the Disco 1 as the new Defender.
It's the right size and capability. I'm sure they could make a pick-up version easily enough.
Hell they could even throw some rust proofing at it this time.
Good idea? Non?
Yes, use the common D3 platform but with coil springs, an updated 2.7-V6-TDi and a 4-cab pickup. They'd sell every single one they could make. Not sure whether it'd be worth them including a manual box these days. Keep the major options limited but introduce minor options that everyone will want to pay over the odds for (everyone hates blanking plates in place of switches when you can have a functional switch that you'll never use).It's the right size and capability. I'm sure they could make a pick-up version easily enough.
Hell they could even throw some rust proofing at it this time.
Good idea? Non?
Surely the problem is that the target market for the Defender wants something that is 100% reliable, most importantly keeps on going through thick and with nothing more than an occasional tickle with a large lump hammer every blue moon.
If it's cheap so much the better but less important than just keeping on keeping on.
If it's cheap so much the better but less important than just keeping on keeping on.
v8will said:
The better gamble would be invest now in lightweight construction and (shudder) next gen hybrid tech.
That would really annoy the eco-hippies if LR introduce hybrids into their ranges.If you debadge it, they wouldn't have a clue if its a v8 penguin killer or flower powered
300bhp/ton said:
In 2003 a well specced 5 door Freelander could be had for about £19. I reckon today you'd be looking at more like £28-30k.
In 03 I could see people considering the Freelander over things like an Astra of Focus as price wise they weren't sonar away. I think (although haven't checked) that this price gap has increased.
A moderately specced new Focus (Titanium spec) is £18,750 before options. Current Freelander starts at £22k. Not exactly a massive gulf between the two.In 03 I could see people considering the Freelander over things like an Astra of Focus as price wise they weren't sonar away. I think (although haven't checked) that this price gap has increased.
To get to £30k you'd be looking at the top-spec HSE which comes with just about every toy they can throw at it.
v8will said:
The better gamble would be invest now in lightweight construction and (shudder) next gen hybrid tech.
Yeah, imagine a Range Rover with 500lb-ft of torque, a range of 690 miles and only 89g of CO2 per km!http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/motorshows/geneva-mot...
You can't buy it until 2013 though.
300bhp/ton said:
Increasing fuel prices? /snip/
They are well aware of the need to bring weights down along with the almost inevitable hybrid drive systems for lowering emissions. JLR have been consulting a number engineering companies for such solutions. The next gen RR is looking to be considerably lighter than the L322 (prob around 300kgs less.) with all the advantages that brings. The current 2wd drive offerings are nothing more than a nod to being eco but fits into the range well, especially combined with their Stop/Start system.As for the marketplace, it's much easier to make a profit from selling a handful of expensive things rather than chasing a quid or two from cheaper items. Once you've placed the brand into the higher echelons of perceived must-haveness (real word!) it's not an issue to convince customers to replace their car every three years or so. "Sign here, here and here and the payments start next month, Madam."
Also remember that JLR are thinking globally with their product and their success isn't totally reliant on sales in their home market. The Far East and Russia are emerging economies with a thirst for a quality product (real or perceived) and the USA are just starting to realise that Land Rover aren't unreliable rustbuckets afterall.
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