AWD a bad idea for first performance car?
Discussion
Not having owned a 4x4 sports car with mega traction before, I've always wondered if its a bad idea to start out with one.
I've been driven in various standard and modified evo's, scoobs and GTR's and read enough about many others.
I've also driven scoobs and evo's (briefly) one thing I have always thought is that they generate mega grip and let you get away with things that perhaps a more keenly focused rwd might not.
On that basis, would you say its possible that buying one of these types of performance cars before a rwd for example might make you a) too cocky and b) pick up bad habits that might make you come a cropper if your next car is rwd?
I've been driven in various standard and modified evo's, scoobs and GTR's and read enough about many others.
I've also driven scoobs and evo's (briefly) one thing I have always thought is that they generate mega grip and let you get away with things that perhaps a more keenly focused rwd might not.
On that basis, would you say its possible that buying one of these types of performance cars before a rwd for example might make you a) too cocky and b) pick up bad habits that might make you come a cropper if your next car is rwd?
doogz said:
edo said:
4wd only improves grip under acceleration (traction) . It does not allow you to go round a corner faster (grip).
Not this again.Yes, they inspire massive confidence, but I'd argue that's a bad thing in a road car. IMO it's better to have a car with low, approachable limits than stupidly high ones that just leave you restricted by line of sight more of the time.
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 6th April 08:57
doogz said:
It's not really. We've done this all before with the friction circles blah blah blah, but the short version is, 4WD allows each tyre to deal with more lateral acceleration than the driven wheels on a 2WD car will, because they're being asked to do less.
I understand the physics, but all road cars that I've ever driven have been set up to under steer on the limit anyway (whether FWD, RWD or 4WD) unless you're needlessly brutal with the throttle, so 4wd doesn't really buy you anything significant because the front wheels are unburdened by power in a RWD car anyway. All you're gaining is the ability to get the power down harder than you would in a RWD one without that back end breaking away. No its not a bad idea at all. You'll love the all weather all road performance but remember just because AWD is better than RWD in the wet doesn't mean that you're invincible. Because the limits of grip are so great in something like an Evo if you do push it too far the consequences will be very messy. Tyre choice is important too.
Edited by superman84 on Wednesday 6th April 09:17
doogz said:
kambites said:
All you're gaining is the ability to get the power down harder than you would in a RWD one without that back end breaking away.
Soo...More grip then.
nickythesaint said:
Not having owned a 4x4 sports car with mega traction before, I've always wondered if its a bad idea to start out with one.
I've been driven in various standard and modified evo's, scoobs and GTR's and read enough about many others.
I've also driven scoobs and evo's (briefly) one thing I have always thought is that they generate mega grip and let you get away with things that perhaps a more keenly focused rwd might not.
On that basis, would you say its possible that buying one of these types of performance cars before a rwd for example might make you a) too cocky and b) pick up bad habits that might make you come a cropper if your next car is rwd?
I like awd and have no qualms about owning or driving them. The only points I'd make is, a lot of AWD cars mean you can't be such a hooligan at sensible speeds. So if you like flicking the back out and sliding around, a powerful rwd car can usually do this at far lower speeds. So you could argue that awd can be less fun in some situations. I've been driven in various standard and modified evo's, scoobs and GTR's and read enough about many others.
I've also driven scoobs and evo's (briefly) one thing I have always thought is that they generate mega grip and let you get away with things that perhaps a more keenly focused rwd might not.
On that basis, would you say its possible that buying one of these types of performance cars before a rwd for example might make you a) too cocky and b) pick up bad habits that might make you come a cropper if your next car is rwd?
Awd does allow you to use full throttle with ease, whereas a rwd car might well light up the tyres or try and swap ends on you if driven the same. But in reality any half arsed driver should be able to feel how a car is reacting when they drive it, so while they mint still have a moment in a rwd car, I'm not sure it's fair to actually blame past awd cars for it.
Btw - what car(s) are you looking at and what are you coming from at the mo?
kambites said:
doogz said:
It's not really. We've done this all before with the friction circles blah blah blah, but the short version is, 4WD allows each tyre to deal with more lateral acceleration than the driven wheels on a 2WD car will, because they're being asked to do less.
I understand the physics, but all road cars that I've ever driven have been set up to under steer on the limit anyway (whether FWD, RWD or 4WD) unless you're needlessly brutal with the throttle, so 4wd doesn't really buy you anything significant because the front wheels are unburdened by power in a RWD car anyway. All you're gaining is the ability to get the power down harder than you would in a RWD one without that back end breaking away. Also aren't DC2's more oversteer bias in stock trim?kambites said:
300bhp/ton said:
My TR7 certainly has a tendency to oversteer power induced. Also aren't DC2's more oversteer bias in stock trim?
Neither will over-steer at neutral throttle, in my experience. I've never driven a road car that will. Also aren't DC2's more oversteer bias in stock trim?300bhp/ton said:
In fairness the Triumph isn't anywhere near stock. But yeah it highly oversteer biased, which is odd as they aren't normally. I must just have struck a lucky setup. But neutral throttle and it's the back that'll step out.
Surely that's almost undrivable? You enter a corner at neutral throttle and the back end goes, how do you get it back? Anything you do with the throttle will make it worse, presumably you just have to scrub off speed with the clutch down to recover it? Sounds like a horrible car to drive.
fatboy b said:
edo said:
4wd only improves grip under acceleration (traction) . It does not allow you to go round a corner faster (grip).
Yes it does. I certainly wouldn't have been able to do the things I do with the A5 around corners with my old M3 (E46).I'm not saying a 4wd car doesn't have advantages (esp. in the wet) in going quickly (and I apologise for dragging this out again), but 2 cars, same wheels and tyres, only difference is drive - if going round a corner at a constant speed (not accelerating), how does 4wd help?
doogz said:
I'm presuming it doesn't do it at every possible speed.
Otherwise you'd have to compare what you've just described to turning into a corner, and experiencing understeer, every time, rendering the car almost undriveable.
Uncorrectable under-steer is less of an issue than uncorrectable over-steer because it keeps you pointing in roughly the right direction whilst slowing you down. Besides, under-steer isn't fun, so you tend to avoid it where possible; over-steer is fun so you want to be able to induce it and then do something about it once you have. Otherwise you'd have to compare what you've just described to turning into a corner, and experiencing understeer, every time, rendering the car almost undriveable.
kambites said:
Surely that's almost undrivable? You enter a corner at neutral throttle and the back end goes, how do you get it back? Anything you do with the throttle will make it worse, presumably you just have to scrub off speed with the clutch down to recover it?
Sounds like a horrible car to drive.
Ok maybe it sounds worse written down than when driving. And maybe what I said above is wrong. The car is a complete riot to drive, very much a hooligans car and very much a drivers car. It's quite neutral most of the time. But if you lap anround about and gentley accelerate (ok not neutral throttle) it'll go faster and then the back will start to progressively slide out rather than the front. So not planted right foot induced, although it'll do that too. Sounds like a horrible car to drive.
It currently runs an open diff, so isn't snappy when transgressing into oversteer. But it's quite controllable on the throttle and with the steering. Not huge amounts of grip, so it's not the fastest car point to point. But it does make you smile.
Apologies for confusing the issue and getting it wrong above.
doogz said:
A car going round a corner is accelerating. And at constant forward speed, there is still a load being applied to the driven wheels from the engine. 4WD allows that load to be distributed more evenly, across 4 wheels and tyres, instead of 2.
At constant speed, yes. An neutral throttle, no. It's purely a semantic argument, but I'd consider the advantage you're getting at constant speed to be extra traction rather than extra transverse grip.
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