Reliability without electronictrickery
Discussion
(I should probably have put 'what car alert' in the title but I wanted to tempt you in first 
)
In days of old, when all this was fields, the number of things which could go wrong with a car was pretty limited: starter motor, alternator, distributor/leads was pretty much it.
I've reached the stage now where I find modern cars, with all of their multiple ECUs, DPFs and prima donna-ish turbos are just a constant source of worry (fear of failure) and cost (when they do).
I need a new car - anything from practical two-seater to med-family/execy type thing - but I don't want any 'that'll be two grand please' type garage bills because some little black box or other has failed.
Now, I'm not entirely deluded. I see far, far fewer cars these days at the side of the road with the bonnet up waiting for the fourth emergency service, but are there any gems of the last 30 or so years which combine reliability with minimal electronics (I'm not entirely anti-ECU; I just want minimal and reliable)
)In days of old, when all this was fields, the number of things which could go wrong with a car was pretty limited: starter motor, alternator, distributor/leads was pretty much it.
I've reached the stage now where I find modern cars, with all of their multiple ECUs, DPFs and prima donna-ish turbos are just a constant source of worry (fear of failure) and cost (when they do).
I need a new car - anything from practical two-seater to med-family/execy type thing - but I don't want any 'that'll be two grand please' type garage bills because some little black box or other has failed.
Now, I'm not entirely deluded. I see far, far fewer cars these days at the side of the road with the bonnet up waiting for the fourth emergency service, but are there any gems of the last 30 or so years which combine reliability with minimal electronics (I'm not entirely anti-ECU; I just want minimal and reliable)
then 
kery.
I can remember when card were unreliable because the ignition system was out of adjustment, damp and stroppy or the carb was tired, the air cleaner was pointing the wrong way or the choke was stuck.
And weekends servicing them to get rid of noisy tappets, greasing and patching up rust.
Simple means just that, decent base engine with electronic injection and ignition. Then no added fripperies.
And weekends servicing them to get rid of noisy tappets, greasing and patching up rust.
Simple means just that, decent base engine with electronic injection and ignition. Then no added fripperies.
Everything "new" is packed full of electrical jiggery pokery that costs a fortune to fix if it goes wrong.
I look at it two ways. Get something Jap or atleast from the east and in theory, it will be reliable and you shouldn't have to spend out on repairs all the time, but when it does go wrong, parts will probably be costly.
Alternatvly, Get something European. It will probably break more often but part will be cheaper.
I would personally just get something from the East and hope for the best
I look at it two ways. Get something Jap or atleast from the east and in theory, it will be reliable and you shouldn't have to spend out on repairs all the time, but when it does go wrong, parts will probably be costly.
Alternatvly, Get something European. It will probably break more often but part will be cheaper.
I would personally just get something from the East and hope for the best
Genrally any new car will have all the things you want to avoid. The trick is to look at what you want and then see what it comes with as standard. The really top end cars are so crammed with electric memory seats, heated seats, i dash etc ect lesser brands, like Hyundia have just the basics. These are the things that cost lots to repair. Usually the running electronics are reliable if serviced well and not messed with. If they do go wrong it is coil packs or sensors that cause 90% of the problems. Where it gets costly is that garages are rubbish at diagnosing the true problem.
I remember the ECU on my Austin Maestro failing expensively - I think that was the first car I had that had such a thing. It's been an issue for a long time now.
2 Wycked said:
Caterham 7, Lotus Elise and Mazda MX5.
My Elise needed the electronic control unit for the central locking replacing after it decided to lock me out of the car and I had to get the AA to break into it for me. Surely some rose tinted specticalisation going on here? I remember my old cars, sure, they had no equipment to speak of, but god, what a pita they were! You had to service them very couple of hundred yards, things like exhausts, batteries, brake shoes, wheel bearings etc only seemed to last a few years tops. They never drove the same day to day due to the carbs and points ingnition either. The one saving grace, they were cheap to fix, but you had to do it often!
(my current car, did 105k miles with just 5 sevices from new until in needed a new part (which was an expensive turbocharger i grant you, but considering i had driven the wheels off the poor thing for 5 years without ever opening the bonnet i actually think that is pretty good)
I guess the problem people have with "electronics" is not being able to fix it at home, (mainly due to a lack of knowlege rather than the skills per se) but again, would you really want to strip and rebuild any of the modern mechanical parts yourself?? That all needs special tools and super fine tollerances to work as well, even if it looks simple.
The fundamental reason for modeern cars being more "unreliable" than of old is for 2 reasons:
1) a 10fold increase in the number of systems on the car (by pure percentages, even if the reliability percentage of failures remained the same as of old, then there will be more failures due to the large number of components that "could" fail
2) longer servicing intervals means that problems are not caught as early as they might be, and the "standardised" servicing systems the main dealers use tends to miss or ignore small faults / niggles, whereas your old skool bloke-in-a-shed type garages would get to know your car over the years and hence would recognise a fault etc
(my current car, did 105k miles with just 5 sevices from new until in needed a new part (which was an expensive turbocharger i grant you, but considering i had driven the wheels off the poor thing for 5 years without ever opening the bonnet i actually think that is pretty good)
I guess the problem people have with "electronics" is not being able to fix it at home, (mainly due to a lack of knowlege rather than the skills per se) but again, would you really want to strip and rebuild any of the modern mechanical parts yourself?? That all needs special tools and super fine tollerances to work as well, even if it looks simple.
The fundamental reason for modeern cars being more "unreliable" than of old is for 2 reasons:
1) a 10fold increase in the number of systems on the car (by pure percentages, even if the reliability percentage of failures remained the same as of old, then there will be more failures due to the large number of components that "could" fail
2) longer servicing intervals means that problems are not caught as early as they might be, and the "standardised" servicing systems the main dealers use tends to miss or ignore small faults / niggles, whereas your old skool bloke-in-a-shed type garages would get to know your car over the years and hence would recognise a fault etc
Max_Torque said:
Surely some rose tinted specticalisation going on here? I remember my old cars, sure, they had no equipment to speak of, but god, what a pita they were! You had to service them very couple of hundred yards, things like exhausts, batteries, brake shoes, wheel bearings etc only seemed to last a few years tops. They never drove the same day to day due to the carbs and points ingnition either. The one saving grace, they were cheap to fix, but you had to do it often!
+1 There is always someone on here claiming their old car is "very reliable, if you look after it" and forget to mention that "looking after it" involves spending most weekends in the garage. These are always people who had a suspiciously unreliable Honda/BMW/Toyota in the past.
k-ink said:
Japanese is the answer. Or an old basic car.
Unlikely to go wrong but expensive when they do? I think there is no "answer" to the OP, just a balance of priorities.My own experience of a running a petrol Focus over 70k miles makes me look on them extremely favourably. Utterly reliable and the consumables were buttons.
otolith said:
My Elise needed the electronic control unit for the central locking replacing after it decided to lock me out of the car and I had to get the AA to break into it for me.
I was talking predominantly about Mk1 MX5s and S1 Elises. Would you have had that problem with a Series 1?Frik said:
Unlikely to go wrong but expensive when they do? I think there is no "answer" to the OP, just a balance of priorities.
My own experience of a running a petrol Focus over 70k miles makes me look on them extremely favourably. Utterly reliable and the consumables were buttons.
I can agree with that. A friend has a 2003 Focus 1.8 Zetec he bought brand new. It's done 80k now. I presume it should have been serviced 8 times. It's probably been done 4 or 5 times. He has driven it vey hard from day one and shown it zero tlc or mechanical sympathy. He has not had a single component fail. Nothing at all. The only wear and tear item over and above tyres and brakes was a new clutch a few months ago. A more sympathetic driver would no doubt have got many many more miles from the clutch. My own experience of a running a petrol Focus over 70k miles makes me look on them extremely favourably. Utterly reliable and the consumables were buttons.
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