Michael Schumacher - the verdict
Poll: Michael Schumacher - the verdict
Total Members Polled: 458
Discussion
OK after my last few contributions and some support and a similar amount of abuse - let's settle it and see what the motorsport enthusiasts for PH really think.
I am truly interested to see what the current fans think now we are 6-16 years past his championship wins.
My own view and vote goes for the category that the way he conducted himself on track and behind the scene has really damaged his peerless GP race stats and entitlement to all time great status (On track shame +deviousness > race record - and I am NOT including his ill thought out return to racing 2010 - 2011, which is clearly not adding to his reputation.
I am truly interested to see what the current fans think now we are 6-16 years past his championship wins.
My own view and vote goes for the category that the way he conducted himself on track and behind the scene has really damaged his peerless GP race stats and entitlement to all time great status (On track shame +deviousness > race record - and I am NOT including his ill thought out return to racing 2010 - 2011, which is clearly not adding to his reputation.
Mr E Driver said:
hmmmm I think 2, 3 and 4th options are much the same
I have to disagree, Great + a few dodgy moments describes a lot of truly great sports stars and may not imply intent or pre-meditation of their misdemeanors. The character flaw ++ is more serious, but still rates his achievements higher and then there is the equality category. To be fair no one is choosing the bottom two - not even me, so if you exclude the clearly delusional who think he's flawless (or are just having a pop at me) I think you're seeing a fair spread of opinion - let's give it it 24 hours.
Race stats is all he is the true greats are the 2nd, 3rd, 4th & 5th most winning drivers (Prost 51, Senna 41, Mansell 31 Stewart 27). Funny how the three drivers behind him in the wins list were all doing their winning at the same time as each other with great racing and bitter rivalry creating a golden age to watch F1.
Schumacher is a spoilt thug of a racing driver and it is not just one or two incidents it has been all through his F1 career starting with the way he won his first title. It is the FIA's fault as they should have stripped him of points to give the title to Hill that first year which would have taught him that his behaviour would not be tolerated. Stripping him of points against Villeneuve meant nothing to him as he had already lost the title and taught him nothing.
He is very lucky to have to have raced F1 cars when the strength and safety of the cars and circuits have allowed him to get away with his type of racing. If he had raced this way in the 60's, 70's or the 80's he would not have lasted more than two seasons before he would have seriously injured himself or some one like Alan Jones would have flattened his nose for him.
His attitude to Barrichello last season was deplorable and again the FIA failed to punish him properly. I do not see him winning again and certainly not a championship. IMHO I wish he would clear out so that a good young driver like Hulkenberg could get a shot at a reasonable car.
Please enlighten me what good he has ever done for F1, he usually won from the front in a superior car. Those early drives in the Benneton were good but I can not remember anything as amazing as Senna wining at Donnington European GP in an inferior car. He was not as talented as Clark or Rindt, as brave as Senna, Mansell or Giles as clever as Prost or as determined as Fangio, Lauda and Stewart or as great in the wet as Senna or Peterson.
Yes you have guessed I am really not a fan and I can not get round the statistics that he has racked up, but he just does not stir the passion for racing in me like so many other drivers have.
All the other great drivers have had at some time had to go head to head with a talented team mate often ending in tears but great to watch any way. Like Senna v Prost, Mansell v Piquet, Villeneuve v Pironi, Jones v Reutteman, Lauda v Prost, Alonso v Hamilton etc. etc.
Rosberg is the first decent team mate Schumacher has had who is not contractually hand tied (Like Barrichello was) and the result is not that great. I admit his abilities are waning but most people thought Rosberg was in for a hard time which has not been so.
Schumacher is a spoilt thug of a racing driver and it is not just one or two incidents it has been all through his F1 career starting with the way he won his first title. It is the FIA's fault as they should have stripped him of points to give the title to Hill that first year which would have taught him that his behaviour would not be tolerated. Stripping him of points against Villeneuve meant nothing to him as he had already lost the title and taught him nothing.
He is very lucky to have to have raced F1 cars when the strength and safety of the cars and circuits have allowed him to get away with his type of racing. If he had raced this way in the 60's, 70's or the 80's he would not have lasted more than two seasons before he would have seriously injured himself or some one like Alan Jones would have flattened his nose for him.
His attitude to Barrichello last season was deplorable and again the FIA failed to punish him properly. I do not see him winning again and certainly not a championship. IMHO I wish he would clear out so that a good young driver like Hulkenberg could get a shot at a reasonable car.
Please enlighten me what good he has ever done for F1, he usually won from the front in a superior car. Those early drives in the Benneton were good but I can not remember anything as amazing as Senna wining at Donnington European GP in an inferior car. He was not as talented as Clark or Rindt, as brave as Senna, Mansell or Giles as clever as Prost or as determined as Fangio, Lauda and Stewart or as great in the wet as Senna or Peterson.
Yes you have guessed I am really not a fan and I can not get round the statistics that he has racked up, but he just does not stir the passion for racing in me like so many other drivers have.
All the other great drivers have had at some time had to go head to head with a talented team mate often ending in tears but great to watch any way. Like Senna v Prost, Mansell v Piquet, Villeneuve v Pironi, Jones v Reutteman, Lauda v Prost, Alonso v Hamilton etc. etc.
Rosberg is the first decent team mate Schumacher has had who is not contractually hand tied (Like Barrichello was) and the result is not that great. I admit his abilities are waning but most people thought Rosberg was in for a hard time which has not been so.
I voted for "one of the best, but with serious character flaws".
Without wanting to start an argument, I'll just add to what is written above about the FIA. If the FIA had acted properly and handed out appropriate bans/suspensions at the time then his behaviour would have been curtailed before it got into the 1995 season, let alone 1997, 1998, 2010 etc.
If you know that you won't get away with something, you won't do it. If you know that the judge, jury and executioner are on your side it blurs the moral line somewhat.
Without wanting to start an argument, I'll just add to what is written above about the FIA. If the FIA had acted properly and handed out appropriate bans/suspensions at the time then his behaviour would have been curtailed before it got into the 1995 season, let alone 1997, 1998, 2010 etc.
If you know that you won't get away with something, you won't do it. If you know that the judge, jury and executioner are on your side it blurs the moral line somewhat.
I also think that he will not make it back to the front. The physical and mental reaction times can not be those of a 25 year old. Considering that he is 41, he is actually not doing bad at all, but it is a natural law that he can not be up there with people of half his age, and that has to be accepted, by himself and by all those who hang on to a distant past.
As a person, he has never had style, grace, generosity in his personality. You have to consider that he comes from a definitely poor and uneducated family background and upbringing and has never had much chance to develop his human and social side. You can also see these things in his brother who shows the same insecurity that then translates into humanly poor and clumsy behaviour that is all too often read as arrogance. I have often felt sorry for both of them.
That said, how could he then win all those races and championships?
I think that he (and his management) have always had the instinct to do the right decisions at the right moments, at least until last year, as opposed to many of the "great aces" in the past. In fact I think that a great many drivers never realised their potential because they made wrong decisions about their career steps and team choices. He also had a unique ability to motivate a team and make it work well all for him. This, together with a sheer will to succeeed and an extraordinarily disciplined working ethic, has led him to all his success. A victory is not worth less because someone did not have to fight for it, when he has worked hard to make sure to be in a position to win without a big struggle. There is more to his success than just luck or incident.
A great character? No. A great "constructor of success"? Most definitely yes.
Does that make him somebody loved? No.
As a person, he has never had style, grace, generosity in his personality. You have to consider that he comes from a definitely poor and uneducated family background and upbringing and has never had much chance to develop his human and social side. You can also see these things in his brother who shows the same insecurity that then translates into humanly poor and clumsy behaviour that is all too often read as arrogance. I have often felt sorry for both of them.
That said, how could he then win all those races and championships?
I think that he (and his management) have always had the instinct to do the right decisions at the right moments, at least until last year, as opposed to many of the "great aces" in the past. In fact I think that a great many drivers never realised their potential because they made wrong decisions about their career steps and team choices. He also had a unique ability to motivate a team and make it work well all for him. This, together with a sheer will to succeeed and an extraordinarily disciplined working ethic, has led him to all his success. A victory is not worth less because someone did not have to fight for it, when he has worked hard to make sure to be in a position to win without a big struggle. There is more to his success than just luck or incident.
A great character? No. A great "constructor of success"? Most definitely yes.
Does that make him somebody loved? No.
JMC1 said:
1. he usually won from the front in a superior car.
2. I can not remember anything as amazing as Senna wining at Donnington European GP in an inferior car.
1. He did what most drivers don't do, instead of going to winning teams he went to team with poor track records and coincidentally or not, whilst there they became winners.2. I can not remember anything as amazing as Senna wining at Donnington European GP in an inferior car.
2. At Donny Senna's car had tc, MS's did not.
You have to say he pulled out some great successes, in the wet, stuck in fifth gear, leap-frogging rivals with pit strategy, etc etc.
He also had an unmatched work ethic.
I have been watching the poll develop with interest, of the first 8 to vote, 4 opted for Simply the best/flawless, it is fascinating to me that no more in the last 44 votes have chosen that category.
What is abundantly clear, even at this stage, is that he remains the most divisive multi- F1 champion ever and as such will be remembered for his ruthlessness, his stats and his political skills. Given most peoples' opinion of politics and politicians that's not great for his legacy, which will always be tainted.
It remains to be seen if the whole truth of the 'success' behind the Schumacher years ever comes to be published.
What is abundantly clear, even at this stage, is that he remains the most divisive multi- F1 champion ever and as such will be remembered for his ruthlessness, his stats and his political skills. Given most peoples' opinion of politics and politicians that's not great for his legacy, which will always be tainted.
It remains to be seen if the whole truth of the 'success' behind the Schumacher years ever comes to be published.
Dangerous2 said:
i think one of the reasons he seems so good is that he had one advantage no other driver has ever had. For the main part of the ferrari years, Schumacher effectively had bespoke Bridgestone tyres, which he developed for his own driving style.
But that was all down to his ability - he chosen for those tyres not because of who he was, but because of how he drove.He certainly wouldn't be 'the chosen one' now.
Dangerous2 said:
i think one of the reasons he seems so good is that he had one advantage no other driver has ever had. For the main part of the ferrari years, Schumacher effectively had bespoke Bridgestone tyres, which he developed for his own driving style.
totally agree with this. No way has the man fallen this far from grace in a few years. He is obviously good, as they all are at the front of F1. However, he had a shameless, car, tyre and lack of team mate advantage.His ability has been flattered massively by having no reasonable competition for those years.
I firmly believe if you gave Jenson, Lewis, Mark Webber, Vettel, Alonso (all the front guys but Massa basically) - then they would have done exactly the same job.
for me you can't compare him to the likes of the previous greats on driving ability. In fact I'd go as far to say the current crop make him look ordinary. I'd probably rank him in the same league as Webber, Vettel, Button etc.......not as good as Hamilton and Alonso.
CiderwithCerbie said:
I have been watching the poll develop with interest, of the first 8 to vote, 4 opted for Simply the best/flawless, it is fascinating to me that no more in the last 44 votes have chosen that category.
I didn't vote as there was no option for "the most over-rated sportsman in history". None of the other options seemed relevant.RacerMDR said:
. However, he had a shameless, car, tyre and lack of team mate advantage.
His ability has been flattered massively by having no reasonable competition for those years.
I firmly believe if you gave Jenson, Lewis, Mark Webber, Vettel, Alonso (all the front guys but Massa basically) - then they would have done exactly the same job.
Shameless? His ability has been flattered massively by having no reasonable competition for those years.
I firmly believe if you gave Jenson, Lewis, Mark Webber, Vettel, Alonso (all the front guys but Massa basically) - then they would have done exactly the same job.
He had to earn that advantage, it wasn't given to him. he clearly wanted to win F1 championships (as opposed to popularity contests) and he did what he thought was needed, and records show that he was possibly right.
It's interesting that as unique as his achievements are, people can produce lists of drivers who could do the same if *given* (not that anybody gives anything to anyone at that level) similar opportunities.
Well maybe they could, but if required to earn for themselves the advantages required (as MS did) then they'rte not going to win so much.
Jenson will win just one championship and Mark won't win any, but they've been "given" as much as MS ever was. The rest they'll have to earn.
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