Discussion
BBC said:
Coincidentally, Rangers supporters' groups were meeting police and the procurator fiscal on Thursday ahead of the next Old Firm derby, where a specialist team of officers will be deployed in a bid to tackle sectarianism.
The Rangers fans were looking to clarify what words and songs would be deemed unacceptable by the authorities.
clickyThe Rangers fans were looking to clarify what words and songs would be deemed unacceptable by the authorities.
... how about ...
"We're up to our knees in fenian blood ..."?
Now, much as I dislike everything blue, let's get sensible here. There's zero chance of stopping the huns singing their favourite song and these days, the words really don't mean anything. I wager that the average Rangers
It's also amusing that the "green side of Weegie-land" appears to escape critisism when they're just as bad.
Sorry, rant over.
Cheers,
Eric
(Red 'til I'm dead)
Edited by Kiltie on Friday 15th April 10:37
I got bored of all of this a while ago.
I used to be quite into my football - but I wouldn't say I was a die hard, go to every game, singing offensive songs type - I tried to enjoy the game for what it was.
I agree with you though, there's no chance of fans ever stopping singing these songs - but I think it's a good thing to see the Supporter's Club going to speak about what they can & cannot sing.
That won't stop people singing it though.
All of this seems very much focused on Rangers & Celtic - which, in my opinion, is a bit harsh.
Fair enough, those 2 are probably the main "rivals", but surely other teams must be guilty of this too?
We'll never be rid of sectarianism anyway until there's no more football at all - fact.
I used to be quite into my football - but I wouldn't say I was a die hard, go to every game, singing offensive songs type - I tried to enjoy the game for what it was.
I agree with you though, there's no chance of fans ever stopping singing these songs - but I think it's a good thing to see the Supporter's Club going to speak about what they can & cannot sing.
That won't stop people singing it though.
All of this seems very much focused on Rangers & Celtic - which, in my opinion, is a bit harsh.
Fair enough, those 2 are probably the main "rivals", but surely other teams must be guilty of this too?
We'll never be rid of sectarianism anyway until there's no more football at all - fact.
This is a deep-rooted, centuries old, sectarianism issue. It will never go away, IMO.
I'm not condoning any of the activities, songs, posturing, etc and besides, I think football is boring as f
k.
I do think both sets of fans are as guilty as each other, but the authorities seem to be homing in on the Rangers contingent at the moment.
I'm not condoning any of the activities, songs, posturing, etc and besides, I think football is boring as f
k.I do think both sets of fans are as guilty as each other, but the authorities seem to be homing in on the Rangers contingent at the moment.
ViperPict said:
I find Rangers fans that decide their politics on that basis particularly sad! As in, we support Rangers, therefore we're Unionist! Morons.
^^ Agree, kinda. I'm sure each set of fans are good at goading each other.So you must think that all the tri-colours flying at Parkhead - Eastern Glasgow, that famous part of Ireland - are ok?
FamilyDub said:
ViperPict said:
I find Rangers fans that decide their politics on that basis particularly sad! As in, we support Rangers, therefore we're Unionist! Morons.
^^ Agree, kinda. I'm sure each set of fans are good at goading each other.So you must think that all the tri-colours flying at Parkhead - Eastern Glasgow, that famous part of Ireland - are ok?
I think in media, police and football circles it is now accepted that it is not a case of they are as bad as each other, but that Rangers have the worst problem.
They have done a lot to counteract it but I think could still do more.
But getting arrested for singing the songs is going to take some doing. Is it the song that is offensive or certain words? In motoring terms, you can join the motorway, accelerate fast but slow down before you exceed the limit. Similarly you could belt out a song but stop short of singing the"bad" line?
And then in court I am sure a lawyer will defend the right to political freedom of speech?
Will all get very messy.
They have done a lot to counteract it but I think could still do more.
But getting arrested for singing the songs is going to take some doing. Is it the song that is offensive or certain words? In motoring terms, you can join the motorway, accelerate fast but slow down before you exceed the limit. Similarly you could belt out a song but stop short of singing the"bad" line?
And then in court I am sure a lawyer will defend the right to political freedom of speech?
Will all get very messy.
Has anyone realised what the last verse of God save the queen states!
Could this be considered sectarian?
Lord grant that Marshal Wade
May by thy mighty aid
Victory bring
May he sedition hush
And like a torrent rush
Rebellious Scots to crush
God save the King
Though when you hear what goes on in other countries you do wonder why the "Old Firm" are being vilified they are bad but probably no worse than some other teams
Could this be considered sectarian?
Lord grant that Marshal Wade
May by thy mighty aid
Victory bring
May he sedition hush
And like a torrent rush
Rebellious Scots to crush
God save the King
Though when you hear what goes on in other countries you do wonder why the "Old Firm" are being vilified they are bad but probably no worse than some other teams
Edited by S2red on Friday 15th April 15:28
Edited by S2red on Friday 15th April 16:54
S2red said:
Has anyone realisedwhat the last verse of God save the queen states!
Could this be considered sectarian?
Lord grant that Marshal Wade
May by thy mighty aid
Victory bring
May he sedition hush
And like a torrent rush
Rebellious Scots to crush
God save the King
Though when you hear what goes on in other countries you do wonder why the "Old Firm" are being vilified they are bad but porobably no worse than some other teams
Don't know about sectarian but it goes a long way to explain the general attitude the English ruling classes have regarded Scotland since the Act of The Union!Could this be considered sectarian?
Lord grant that Marshal Wade
May by thy mighty aid
Victory bring
May he sedition hush
And like a torrent rush
Rebellious Scots to crush
God save the King
Though when you hear what goes on in other countries you do wonder why the "Old Firm" are being vilified they are bad but porobably no worse than some other teams
Edited by S2red on Friday 15th April 15:28
I'm a Glaswegian and a lifelong Gers fan, and season ticket holder. I also take communion at St Francis of the East church in Bridgeton, which is the church used by the Black Lodge (which is the spiritual wing of the Orange Order).
The song 'The Billy Boys' as sung at Ibrox with the o-so-offensive 'fenian blood' lyric has really nothing much directly to do with either football or religious bigotry. It has a great deal more to do with the intense enmity between two long extinct gangs - one based at Bridgeton Cross (The Billy Boys) and the other centred on Norman Street/Poplin Street (The Norman Conks). There is an unresolved debate as to whether the 'Billy' of Billy Boys is a reference to William of Orange or to William (Billy) Fullerton who was the founder and 'leader aff' of The Brigton Billy Boys gang. Most likely probably a combination of both.
No understanding of the violence between rival supporters of Rangers and Celtic football clubs is possible without an understanding of Glasgow street gangs and their territorial nature, and their socially and community based ethnic and religious composition. But, whilst once upon a time the violent clashes would be between large and semi-organised gangs of youths and middle aged men, it is now almost entirely confined to small and sporadic outbreaks between disorganised and almost entirely youthful neds.
The so-called '90 minute bigotry' is something quite different. It's pretty close to being a game. Someone might, for example, be a ruthless killer whilst participating in a computer game, but when the game is finished the 'killer' switches off and the player returns to his mundane and normal role. Someone else might sing the songs and shout and yell and get passionately involved in the tribalism of Old Firm support, yet after the game return to a normal and bigot-free existence.
Our work typifies a common scenario. Of 150 souls, about 50% have no interest whatsoever in anything either football or Old Firm related. The other 50% who do are roughly split 50-50. There is constant banter including what would be considered as seriously sectarian and probably unlawful stuff. And of course this builds to fever pitch as Old Firm games approach. The weekly 5-a-side game is also based on the sectarian divide. But it never ever spills over into anything serious or is even the most offensive banter taken seriously or intended to be taken seriously. It's a game. And that's all it ever will be. Because there's also an 11 a side team which is NOT sectarian based, and as regards work, we're all there for each other without exception.
On match day, it's far from unusual for us to travel in a mixed group, separating as near to the ground as is politic. Then we spend a couple of hours hurling bile and hate at each other. Then we meet up again and go bacck to what passes for normal.
Is all this unhealthy? I don't think so. Am I a 90 minute bigot? Yes I certainly am and always will be. Do I ever let it either spill over into real life or affect anything real? No way. Not a chance. And if the Scottish Parliament, David Murray, the Chief Constable, the Pope or King Billy himself have a problem with that, I suggest they keep it to themselves, because I'm really not interested in their twisting of what amounts to a good laugh into something serious, sinister, or The Blame for the rotten unhappiness a tiny number of brainless neds feel, and use as an excuse for their outrageous and dangerous conduct.
The song 'The Billy Boys' as sung at Ibrox with the o-so-offensive 'fenian blood' lyric has really nothing much directly to do with either football or religious bigotry. It has a great deal more to do with the intense enmity between two long extinct gangs - one based at Bridgeton Cross (The Billy Boys) and the other centred on Norman Street/Poplin Street (The Norman Conks). There is an unresolved debate as to whether the 'Billy' of Billy Boys is a reference to William of Orange or to William (Billy) Fullerton who was the founder and 'leader aff' of The Brigton Billy Boys gang. Most likely probably a combination of both.
No understanding of the violence between rival supporters of Rangers and Celtic football clubs is possible without an understanding of Glasgow street gangs and their territorial nature, and their socially and community based ethnic and religious composition. But, whilst once upon a time the violent clashes would be between large and semi-organised gangs of youths and middle aged men, it is now almost entirely confined to small and sporadic outbreaks between disorganised and almost entirely youthful neds.
The so-called '90 minute bigotry' is something quite different. It's pretty close to being a game. Someone might, for example, be a ruthless killer whilst participating in a computer game, but when the game is finished the 'killer' switches off and the player returns to his mundane and normal role. Someone else might sing the songs and shout and yell and get passionately involved in the tribalism of Old Firm support, yet after the game return to a normal and bigot-free existence.
Our work typifies a common scenario. Of 150 souls, about 50% have no interest whatsoever in anything either football or Old Firm related. The other 50% who do are roughly split 50-50. There is constant banter including what would be considered as seriously sectarian and probably unlawful stuff. And of course this builds to fever pitch as Old Firm games approach. The weekly 5-a-side game is also based on the sectarian divide. But it never ever spills over into anything serious or is even the most offensive banter taken seriously or intended to be taken seriously. It's a game. And that's all it ever will be. Because there's also an 11 a side team which is NOT sectarian based, and as regards work, we're all there for each other without exception.
On match day, it's far from unusual for us to travel in a mixed group, separating as near to the ground as is politic. Then we spend a couple of hours hurling bile and hate at each other. Then we meet up again and go bacck to what passes for normal.
Is all this unhealthy? I don't think so. Am I a 90 minute bigot? Yes I certainly am and always will be. Do I ever let it either spill over into real life or affect anything real? No way. Not a chance. And if the Scottish Parliament, David Murray, the Chief Constable, the Pope or King Billy himself have a problem with that, I suggest they keep it to themselves, because I'm really not interested in their twisting of what amounts to a good laugh into something serious, sinister, or The Blame for the rotten unhappiness a tiny number of brainless neds feel, and use as an excuse for their outrageous and dangerous conduct.
Rangers and their fans are back in the news today after another charge from EUFA regarding fans chanting at the game against PSV Eindhoven.
I can only geuss what the chanting was but there's a good chance it was some kind of anti-catholic song which highlights the complete lack of historical knowledge that most of the fans have.
History tells us that Holland is the only country in Europe to have excluded catholisism!
William of Orange, again if you know your history you'll know that William of Orange was no friend of the Scots. He was on the throne when the Campbells slaughtered the McDonalds in Glencoe all in the name of the king.
I am no fan of Rangers or Celtic but the lack of historical knowledge shown by many of the fans of these 2 teams is laughable.
I can only geuss what the chanting was but there's a good chance it was some kind of anti-catholic song which highlights the complete lack of historical knowledge that most of the fans have.
History tells us that Holland is the only country in Europe to have excluded catholisism!
William of Orange, again if you know your history you'll know that William of Orange was no friend of the Scots. He was on the throne when the Campbells slaughtered the McDonalds in Glencoe all in the name of the king.
I am no fan of Rangers or Celtic but the lack of historical knowledge shown by many of the fans of these 2 teams is laughable.
groak said:
Is all this unhealthy? I don't think so. Am I a 90 minute bigot? Yes I certainly am and always will be. Do I ever let it either spill over into real life or affect anything real? No way. Not a chance.
Rangers could do without fans like yourself. It's because of people like you that the club are in the trouble they are at the moment.Who is worse, the brainless ned that gets caught up with the bigotry and hatred and goes on to stab/slash an innocent person. Or the supposedly intelligent one who should know better, but continues with the bile and hatred, because it's fun for 90 minutes.
It's time for you to learn some proper football songs.
So from what groak says, its ok to be a bigot for 90 minutes as it 'isn't real'.
Eh, why is that ok? Bigotry in any form should be discouraged, just because its apparent for 90 minutes in a football stadium does not make it acceptable. It almost asks to be punished. Why sing a song you know to be bigoted to a national televised audience, most of whom will deem it wrong? The lyrics to TBB can be polished to look as you want. The fact is that they revel in the suffering of other people purely due to their religion.
This is a social problem and will never be eradicated on either side; highlighted by the fact that most people seem to think Rangers fans should stop singing them to stop further punishment, rather than stop as they are hatred in its purest form.
Eh, why is that ok? Bigotry in any form should be discouraged, just because its apparent for 90 minutes in a football stadium does not make it acceptable. It almost asks to be punished. Why sing a song you know to be bigoted to a national televised audience, most of whom will deem it wrong? The lyrics to TBB can be polished to look as you want. The fact is that they revel in the suffering of other people purely due to their religion.
This is a social problem and will never be eradicated on either side; highlighted by the fact that most people seem to think Rangers fans should stop singing them to stop further punishment, rather than stop as they are hatred in its purest form.
Terzo123 said:
Rangers could do without fans like yourself. It's because of people like you that the club are in the trouble they are at the moment.
Who is worse, the brainless ned that gets caught up with the bigotry and hatred and goes on to stab/slash an innocent person. Or the supposedly intelligent one who should know better, but continues with the bile and hatred, because it's fun for 90 minutes.
It's time for you to learn some proper football songs.
Well I sit in the Govan rear aka 'the quiet stand' where hardly a song is sung anyway, but you're caught up with a fantasy, even if it's a fantasy you share with certain sections of politicians/meeja/legal types. Who is worse, the brainless ned that gets caught up with the bigotry and hatred and goes on to stab/slash an innocent person. Or the supposedly intelligent one who should know better, but continues with the bile and hatred, because it's fun for 90 minutes.
It's time for you to learn some proper football songs.
If the stabbers/slashers are inspired by Old Firm tribalism, how much more are they inspired by, for example, computer games, movies and certain music which graphically portray such activity and even reward it? Are you one of the philosophers who thinks rapists are inspired by girls who dress sexy or look attractive? Have they somehow encouraged/inspired it and the rapists have just got 'caught up' in it? Does manufacturing and marketing hyper-powered cars inspire dangerous and excessive speeding?
I don't think you've ever been to any of these games. 30 or 40 years ago there were serious riots occasionally and always a huge number of arrests. Now it's minimal and marginal. And I don't even know what they're talking about in relation to the PSV game at Ibrox, where there was no visible trouble at all. The frisky and highly charged recent game at Parkhead was never at any time intimidating or fear-inducing to attend as one of a minority away fan. And after the game, notwithstanding a paranoid and tense atmosphere generated by the attending police who 'supervised' the exit from the ground as though WW3 was about to break out,I found myself as one of a very small number of colours-wearing Rangers fans walking down London road along with hundreds if not thousands of Celtic fans. There was a tiny bit of good-natured banter and not even a hint of threat or violence. O I DID see 2 gers neds being huckled off for the night. Both clearly pissed and both - even under escorted arrest - yelling out The Billy Boys. Laughable rather than threatening.
Please believe this - it isn't the tribal atmosphere of a football game that's inspiring stabbings and slashings. It's what a certain type of person does because that's the way they are and that's why they carry a blade in the first place. They are no more 'inspired' by Old Firm 'bigotry' than they are by the gangster movie or shoot em up computer game they played the night before.
Ever been in the weekend city centre as the clubs come out? O, that's right. That's the drink to blame, isn't it? Well I drink. Millions of people drink. So why are WE not inspired to stab and slash when we've had a good skinful?
ultraheed said:
So from what groak says, its ok to be a bigot for 90 minutes as it 'isn't real'.
Eh, why is that ok? Bigotry in any form should be discouraged, just because its apparent for 90 minutes in a football stadium does not make it acceptable. It almost asks to be punished. Why sing a song you know to be bigoted to a national televised audience, most of whom will deem it wrong? The lyrics to TBB can be polished to look as you want. The fact is that they revel in the suffering of other people purely due to their religion.
This is a social problem and will never be eradicated on either side; highlighted by the fact that most people seem to think Rangers fans should stop singing them to stop further punishment, rather than stop as they are hatred in its purest form.
A 'fenian' isn't a religious description, it's a political one. and the poster who said earlier that 90% plus haven't a clue what these songs were originally about was spot on. You're amongst them. Fenianism is a form of Irish republicanism. If anything, the 'anti' is anti-IRAness, not that most singing the song would fully realise that. Eh, why is that ok? Bigotry in any form should be discouraged, just because its apparent for 90 minutes in a football stadium does not make it acceptable. It almost asks to be punished. Why sing a song you know to be bigoted to a national televised audience, most of whom will deem it wrong? The lyrics to TBB can be polished to look as you want. The fact is that they revel in the suffering of other people purely due to their religion.
This is a social problem and will never be eradicated on either side; highlighted by the fact that most people seem to think Rangers fans should stop singing them to stop further punishment, rather than stop as they are hatred in its purest form.
What is it makes you think that the people singing these songs in EITHER tribe are even religiously intolerant, never mind bigoted, never mind filled with hatred? I'm a church-going protestant. Very few attending the matches are. And my church which is in Bridgeton which is the 'spiritual home' of Billyboyism is fully ecumenical. My minister is pally with the local priest. They often invite us if they've something happening and vice versa. I'm obviously missing something here. I 'get tribal' with my fellow 'huns' at football games and sing the songs and get as involved as anyone else. How do you somehow confuse this with being a bigot, a sectarian, or having hatred in my heart for people of another faith? Suck up whatever sensationalism you want, it's not going to make singing a few songs the inspiration of serious violennce any more than singing a few love songs would inspire anyone to be peaceloving and kind.
See when Rangers beat Celtic? My senior manager (diehard Tim) has to wear a Rangers jester cap all day. See when they win, I have to wear that nightmarish Guiness leprechaun tophat allday. Do you think that 'humiliation' is creating some lasting psychological damage that'll result in a mass murder one day? Grow up! It's guys having a laff in a pretty laffless world.
Indeed..
http://www.thesun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/3216...
"Willie Angus VC
Patrick Slavin
Leigh Roose
Donnie McLeod
Archie McMillan
Robert Craig
John McLaughlin
Peter Johnstone.
These are the names of 8 Celtic, yes Celtic players who fought and died during the great war! The morons sing about 'if you know our history' these are the same morons that then protest against their players wearing poppies to remember the men and women that have fought and died for OUR great country! If only THEY knew their own history!!!"
http://www.thesun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/3216...
"Willie Angus VC
Patrick Slavin
Leigh Roose
Donnie McLeod
Archie McMillan
Robert Craig
John McLaughlin
Peter Johnstone.
These are the names of 8 Celtic, yes Celtic players who fought and died during the great war! The morons sing about 'if you know our history' these are the same morons that then protest against their players wearing poppies to remember the men and women that have fought and died for OUR great country! If only THEY knew their own history!!!"
Of course its a political term by definition, but I know that 99% of people who sing it don't see it that way.
My problem with the whole issue is that I know many Rangers fans who I play football with think its commonplace to call me a taig, tarrier, fenian. Theres fun and then theres being ingorant. At the end of the day, its a cultural problem, one thats only highlighted in football and as a result the game gets dragged down with it.
The biggest worry for me is that people in high places; Salmond, the police guy who pretended to type on ssn etc. only seem to want to tackle the issue when theres a bit of handbags during a celtic rangers game.
This argument has been done to death over the years and is never going to be settled on the internet, especially not on pistonheads. After all; speed matters, not what religion someone follows.
My problem with the whole issue is that I know many Rangers fans who I play football with think its commonplace to call me a taig, tarrier, fenian. Theres fun and then theres being ingorant. At the end of the day, its a cultural problem, one thats only highlighted in football and as a result the game gets dragged down with it.
The biggest worry for me is that people in high places; Salmond, the police guy who pretended to type on ssn etc. only seem to want to tackle the issue when theres a bit of handbags during a celtic rangers game.
This argument has been done to death over the years and is never going to be settled on the internet, especially not on pistonheads. After all; speed matters, not what religion someone follows.
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