Recruitment agencies - cost ?
Discussion
One client complained today that they were being charged 20% by most recruitment agencies to place a permanent role
Seems massive, is that the typical rate agents work at ?
Yes it's a key fit but Jobserve ad for 1 month = £200 and even 200 CV downloads = £165
What else do agents add to the mix - a good set of their own contacts?
I assume they charge it because people pay it, but it really did surprise me.
Seems massive, is that the typical rate agents work at ?
Yes it's a key fit but Jobserve ad for 1 month = £200 and even 200 CV downloads = £165
What else do agents add to the mix - a good set of their own contacts?
I assume they charge it because people pay it, but it really did surprise me.
It's a professional service at the end of the day - when you phone up your solicitor they press a button on a timer and charge you x amount of £00's per hour for their time; recruitment really isn't any different. To be fair, getting 20% fees in this market isn't the norm anymore, but a properly niche agency who have years of expertise in a space, know all the best people who aren't ever going to put their CV's on job boards and all those people that are probably not looking, can mobilise expensive consultant's time to go and find those people, sell them the opportunity, keep them interested and manage the process including getting them to turn down other offers, counter offers etc...over what may amount to 3 months for a perm job, definitely deserves a decent fee. Like I say, the agency will have to pay in excess of £100k all in for a top rate consultant, corporate offices, overheards, factoring costs if they do contract recruitment etc...a consultant on £120k is effectively on £500 a day plus all the other associated costs of his desk. 20% of a £50,000 job is a £10k fee. He only has to put about 15 hours of his time into the role from onset to the guy starting with his client, for a £10k fee to be only covering costs.
Wow - elaborate way of saying they get a failed estate agent to fire off a scattergun email to anyone whose CV has a passing reference to the skills required and then makes ten phone calls mithering both parties until deal is struck, then at the last minute call both parties claiming the other is offering less/demanding more trying to enlarge their margin.
added to which he's more or less admitted that he will ring the person he placed with you in twelve months and try and entice him away.
added to which he's more or less admitted that he will ring the person he placed with you in twelve months and try and entice him away.
zippy3x said:
Wow - elaborate way of saying they get a failed estate agent to fire off a scattergun email to anyone whose CV has a passing reference to the skills required and then makes ten phone calls mithering both parties until deal is struck, then at the last minute call both parties claiming the other is offering less/demanding more trying to enlarge their margin.
added to which he's more or less admitted that he will ring the person he placed with you in twelve months and try and entice him away.
+1added to which he's more or less admitted that he will ring the person he placed with you in twelve months and try and entice him away.
and for the record, recruitment is not, and never will be, considered a "profession"
live with it, you'll sleep better
zippy3x said:
Wow - elaborate way of saying they get a failed estate agent to fire off a scattergun email to anyone whose CV has a passing reference to the skills required and then makes ten phone calls mithering both parties until deal is struck, then at the last minute call both parties claiming the other is offering less/demanding more trying to enlarge their margin.
added to which he's more or less admitted that he will ring the person he placed with you in twelve months and try and entice him away.
+2added to which he's more or less admitted that he will ring the person he placed with you in twelve months and try and entice him away.
I charge 30% unless signed up to an agreement in which case it may drop to 20% depending on the volume of business and level of role searched.
My business only works on positions within the space of £60-200k so it requires slightly more than punting CVs around like some of you suggest.
Some of you have clearly had bad experiences using recruitment businesses but you cannot tar everyone with the same brush. It's a bit like saying all Audi drivers are tossers.... hang on, I've got one of those too!
My business only works on positions within the space of £60-200k so it requires slightly more than punting CVs around like some of you suggest.
Some of you have clearly had bad experiences using recruitment businesses but you cannot tar everyone with the same brush. It's a bit like saying all Audi drivers are tossers.... hang on, I've got one of those too!
20% is probably a bit excessive given the role isn't that senior level.
I can certainly see how an upper level / exec position with a lot of chasing would demand that, but for a more junior role which does not require any more specialised knowledge than how to filter CVs*, I'll suggest to them to negotiate better with agents!
*something a lot of agents are really, really bad at
I can certainly see how an upper level / exec position with a lot of chasing would demand that, but for a more junior role which does not require any more specialised knowledge than how to filter CVs*, I'll suggest to them to negotiate better with agents!
*something a lot of agents are really, really bad at
NickHKent said:
I charge 30% unless signed up to an agreement in which case it may drop to 20% depending on the volume of business and level of role searched.
My business only works on positions within the space of £60-200k so it requires slightly more than punting CVs around like some of you suggest.
Some of you have clearly had bad experiences using recruitment businesses but you cannot tar everyone with the same brush. It's a bit like saying all Audi drivers are tossers.... hang on, I've got one of those too!
me too - both counts...hmmmmm My business only works on positions within the space of £60-200k so it requires slightly more than punting CVs around like some of you suggest.
Some of you have clearly had bad experiences using recruitment businesses but you cannot tar everyone with the same brush. It's a bit like saying all Audi drivers are tossers.... hang on, I've got one of those too!
Obiwonkeyblokey said:
NickHKent said:
I charge 30% unless signed up to an agreement in which case it may drop to 20% depending on the volume of business and level of role searched.
My business only works on positions within the space of £60-200k so it requires slightly more than punting CVs around like some of you suggest.
Some of you have clearly had bad experiences using recruitment businesses but you cannot tar everyone with the same brush. It's a bit like saying all Audi drivers are tossers.... hang on, I've got one of those too!
me too - both counts...hmmmmm My business only works on positions within the space of £60-200k so it requires slightly more than punting CVs around like some of you suggest.
Some of you have clearly had bad experiences using recruitment businesses but you cannot tar everyone with the same brush. It's a bit like saying all Audi drivers are tossers.... hang on, I've got one of those too!
we charge nothing at all! But to be fair, we are beta testing! I think both flat rate and percentage models are fair. The problem is not the charging, it is the fact that most agencies are a waste of space! A good one however, is well worth the money as the key is not just finding someone with the skills and experience but also the right cultural fit as this is the key way to prevent having to make a re-hire.
Pappa Lurve said:
we charge nothing at all! But to be fair, we are beta testing! I think both flat rate and percentage models are fair. The problem is not the charging, it is the fact that most agencies are a waste of space! A good one however, is well worth the money as the key is not just finding someone with the skills and experience but also the right cultural fit as this is the key way to prevent having to make a re-hire.
Serious question here:I will always lie to any agent to get past him/her to the client. I know from experience of the difference between what i've been sold at interview and the reality of the position that the end client also lies.
When I go to meet a prospective client and talk to them for a couple of hours, knowing myself and my own personal traits, I sometimes leave not knowing if I'll be a good fit.
how do you expect to evaluate this cultural fit?
a very fair question! Obviously nothing is 100% so our goal is to make it as accurate as is possible. Thus, in registration every candidate takes a basic assessment prior to seeing any roles. The company does the same and thus a personality match can be generated.
We also run assessments for specific roles which may also require specific skill sets such as technical, banking etc. We then offer video interviews or question to help both parties get a better feel for each other prior to spending a lot of time on a face-to-face.
We make no adjustments to the CV's at all and out matching technology for skills etc,which is of course also part of the process, is extremely sophisticated, allowing us (with permission of course) to gain additional insights from their company website info, linkedin etc. All that tech is our own so we know 100% no-one else is using it!
Feedback so far is excellent but we have made a number if changes to the technology, the interface, the assessments themselves (these are provided by an external company which is extremely well respected in this area).
We don't pretend we can filter all the applications and send you the CV of one perfect person of course but we can and do massively reduce the time spent dealing with inappropriate applications both from a skill and personality perspective. Our goal is to improve the process based on our own frustrations of job boards and agencies.
I should say however I met a couple of agencies via this site and they have been very good, informative and attentive but in my experience, most are pretty poor and the job boards are really not great at all.
Thoughts? Very interested to hear what people have to say. We are fortunate to have a couple of massive firms working with us and happily so but we want more feedback on the over-all service and concept, especially as we are bringing out a load of new features and a new design
.
We also run assessments for specific roles which may also require specific skill sets such as technical, banking etc. We then offer video interviews or question to help both parties get a better feel for each other prior to spending a lot of time on a face-to-face.
We make no adjustments to the CV's at all and out matching technology for skills etc,which is of course also part of the process, is extremely sophisticated, allowing us (with permission of course) to gain additional insights from their company website info, linkedin etc. All that tech is our own so we know 100% no-one else is using it!
Feedback so far is excellent but we have made a number if changes to the technology, the interface, the assessments themselves (these are provided by an external company which is extremely well respected in this area).
We don't pretend we can filter all the applications and send you the CV of one perfect person of course but we can and do massively reduce the time spent dealing with inappropriate applications both from a skill and personality perspective. Our goal is to improve the process based on our own frustrations of job boards and agencies.
I should say however I met a couple of agencies via this site and they have been very good, informative and attentive but in my experience, most are pretty poor and the job boards are really not great at all.
Thoughts? Very interested to hear what people have to say. We are fortunate to have a couple of massive firms working with us and happily so but we want more feedback on the over-all service and concept, especially as we are bringing out a load of new features and a new design
.
john_p said:
One client complained today that they were being charged 20% by most recruitment agencies to place a permanent role
Seems massive, is that the typical rate agents work at ?
Yes it's a key fit but Jobserve ad for 1 month = £200 and even 200 CV downloads = £165
What else do agents add to the mix - a good set of their own contacts?
I assume they charge it because people pay it, but it really did surprise me.
It depends, if you are giving out your requirements to major generic agencies then this does seem somewhat expensive. However if you have specific requirements and you approach an agency that specialises in those specific requirements then 20% is a result for you.Seems massive, is that the typical rate agents work at ?
Yes it's a key fit but Jobserve ad for 1 month = £200 and even 200 CV downloads = £165
What else do agents add to the mix - a good set of their own contacts?
I assume they charge it because people pay it, but it really did surprise me.
By way of example I specialise in the Transfer Agency/Collective Investments industry, which covers OEICS and Unit Trusts, PEPs and ISAs, I am good at it, have specialised for the last 14 years, deal with every supplier in the industry, most of the IT contractors in this industry are friends of mine and I actually know what a Unit Trust is, how it works and how the systems such as Rufus, FAST and GFAS work. In fact this much information to those in the know would pin point exactly who I am. I am not being flash here, these are facts and its how I make a lot of money.
So if you have someone like me that works in your industry then I think it is only fair that you accept the cost of that knowledge, skills base and network. It took me a long time as an agent to get accepted in my particular niche, so effectively my clients pay for that knowledge, skills and experience. I don't generalise, I don't place Java/J2EE programmers, Whitebox Testers or Cisco Network Engineers, I save that for my team of recruiters who also know what they are doing.
You probably don't want to know what I charge out at! :-)
JADF said:
So if I have been offered (new biz) fees at 15% of salary (less than £50k salaries) by a city of London agency that's quite a good deal?
Cheers.
J
No - not in todays market unless its a very specialist role. Recruitment Agencies often charge the same as 10 years ago when they had a specialist database and had to spend heavy in the trade press to attract. With online recruitment for many roles sourcing a candidate is a much different process i.e faster going to press, access to multiple databases, public social media profiles. Additionally posting a recruitment site can be time consuming due to irrelevant applications. If you want a detailed pre-screening and very specialist roles, spend 15%. However many agencies now charge a flat fee such as http://www.technorecruit.co.uk who I have used for multiple roles IT and non IT and also £50k+ roles. Cheers.
J
Edited by JADF on Monday 23 May 23:17
We pay 18% for a very good recruitment company on hires that typically pay £50-£120k in our sector (IT).
They add a lot of value, and the quality of candidates they put forward has always been 1st rate.
Don't confuse an agency with a recruitment specialist / headhunter. One collates and forwards CVs, the other sends you 3 candidates, prescreened, out of which you could probably safely hire any of them.
They add a lot of value, and the quality of candidates they put forward has always been 1st rate.
Don't confuse an agency with a recruitment specialist / headhunter. One collates and forwards CVs, the other sends you 3 candidates, prescreened, out of which you could probably safely hire any of them.
Long-time lurker on these boards, but felt I should add my 2p in this instance...
I'm a headhunter. I charge either 25% or 30%, depending on the salary level, and I'm not just talking about senior-level jobs on a retainer either. The majority of my placements are in the £30-50k region.
Barring exceptional circumstances, these fees are non-negotiable, and I won't work on an assignment unless it's exclusively with me. I don't use online job boards, and most of the time my jobs are not advertised at all. Even if the advertising is free, the administrative burden of dealing with the applications usually outweighs the benefit of advertising the job.
If I'm speculatively marketing a candidate into companies, the fee is still non-negotiable as they are candidates who will make their companies vast sums of money, rendering the fee almost irrelevant. And, they don't have to pay it unless they hire them anyway. I work for free until I'm paid - if they don't think the fee is value for money, they can ultimately choose not to pay it at all.
There is a hell of a lot more to good recruiting than sourcing CVs. For example:
Understanding the job in terms of purpose and on-the-job performance, not a wishlist of arbitrary requirements drawn up and thrown together on a job spec.
Understanding what kind of person would be a good fit for that company's environment. (Through these two points, I know almost for certain which candidate will be offered the job before I even arrange the interview).
Implementing a process which avoids problems occuring throughout the recruitment process, and holding everyone accountable to it.
Approaching talented people who are not looking for a job and helping them to see the benefit in a better opportunity.
Coaching clients on how to interview properly and sell the opportunity according to the candidate's motivations.
There are many, many more components of the process besides. Most of which I can guarantee are ignored by the 95% of UK recruiters out there who compete solely or primarily on price. Ultimately, the result is a maximum of three candidates, and often just one, who are all more than good enough to be offered the job, and most of the time they are people who would be unavailable through any other source. The bigger challenge when you recruit properly is getting the candidate to accept the offer, hand in their notice and move. Finding the candidate is the easy part, and only a small piece of the puzzle.
Having a long-established contact base isn't necessary to do a good job either (although it certainly helps). I set up a new division last autumn with no contacts whatsoever, and it's doing very nicely now. If you know how to recruit properly then you don't need a back-database of candidates, and since the first thing I did was to research, contact and qualify every single company in my industry, I have good industry knowledge despite length of experience.
The state of the recruitment industry in the UK is depressing to me. It absolutely IS a profession, when done properly it's by far the most complicated sales job in existence and every bit as challenging as any of the learned professions. As for the difference between a headhunter and a recruitment agency? It's one of quality, nothing else. The only areas in which headhunting is not appropriate for filling positions, third party recruitment services would be of questionable value anyway. Hence why people charge 10% for said services...
I'm a headhunter. I charge either 25% or 30%, depending on the salary level, and I'm not just talking about senior-level jobs on a retainer either. The majority of my placements are in the £30-50k region.
Barring exceptional circumstances, these fees are non-negotiable, and I won't work on an assignment unless it's exclusively with me. I don't use online job boards, and most of the time my jobs are not advertised at all. Even if the advertising is free, the administrative burden of dealing with the applications usually outweighs the benefit of advertising the job.
If I'm speculatively marketing a candidate into companies, the fee is still non-negotiable as they are candidates who will make their companies vast sums of money, rendering the fee almost irrelevant. And, they don't have to pay it unless they hire them anyway. I work for free until I'm paid - if they don't think the fee is value for money, they can ultimately choose not to pay it at all.
There is a hell of a lot more to good recruiting than sourcing CVs. For example:
Understanding the job in terms of purpose and on-the-job performance, not a wishlist of arbitrary requirements drawn up and thrown together on a job spec.
Understanding what kind of person would be a good fit for that company's environment. (Through these two points, I know almost for certain which candidate will be offered the job before I even arrange the interview).
Implementing a process which avoids problems occuring throughout the recruitment process, and holding everyone accountable to it.
Approaching talented people who are not looking for a job and helping them to see the benefit in a better opportunity.
Coaching clients on how to interview properly and sell the opportunity according to the candidate's motivations.
There are many, many more components of the process besides. Most of which I can guarantee are ignored by the 95% of UK recruiters out there who compete solely or primarily on price. Ultimately, the result is a maximum of three candidates, and often just one, who are all more than good enough to be offered the job, and most of the time they are people who would be unavailable through any other source. The bigger challenge when you recruit properly is getting the candidate to accept the offer, hand in their notice and move. Finding the candidate is the easy part, and only a small piece of the puzzle.
Having a long-established contact base isn't necessary to do a good job either (although it certainly helps). I set up a new division last autumn with no contacts whatsoever, and it's doing very nicely now. If you know how to recruit properly then you don't need a back-database of candidates, and since the first thing I did was to research, contact and qualify every single company in my industry, I have good industry knowledge despite length of experience.
The state of the recruitment industry in the UK is depressing to me. It absolutely IS a profession, when done properly it's by far the most complicated sales job in existence and every bit as challenging as any of the learned professions. As for the difference between a headhunter and a recruitment agency? It's one of quality, nothing else. The only areas in which headhunting is not appropriate for filling positions, third party recruitment services would be of questionable value anyway. Hence why people charge 10% for said services...
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