IP PTZ camera question from another thread

[Henry-F]

munky said:

Henry-F said:

munky said:

O/T but I see you sell CCTV.. something else I could do with so might drop you a line with a view to a possible purchase there... been experimenting with a (not cheap) EyeSpy247 PTZ camera; it is 80% there but doesn't quite fit the bill re: resolution (640x480) and motion-activated recording time of only 5 secs.. with new firmware it can record constantly to my 2TB Apple wireless NAS but that would kill my wireless network, especially if I added more and/or wireless cameras.

Re: the CCTV your choice of camera would go against pretty much everything we stand for!!!

see, I'll have to answer this now!

Henry-F said:

Not fans of wireless due to erratic signal transfer and in the case of IP cameras the resource drain especially when using several cameras.

Yes, but I'm not using the wireless functionality of mine. It's wired to the router.

Henry-F said:

PTZ camera a gimmick unless you have a full time CCTV operator, fit more fixed cameras.

Except you can automate it. You can set up a number of fixed points to aim at using PTZ and then name them. The camera can then "patrol" those areas every x seconds, where you determine x. There's an option to disable this patrolling when the camera detects motion, so it can stay pointed at the motion. And, you can control the PTZ remotely from work, on the bus, on the yacht, on the lawnmower etc with a smartphone.

Henry-F said:

1/4 inch CMOS sensor indicates cheap electronics

I don't see how the sensor size indicates anything about the other electronics, but anyway

O.5 lux min confirms this and makes a mockery of the little IR LEDs. The camera simply won't be able to make best use of the low light provided especially at any distance.
It doesn't have IR LEDs - it has white light LEDs. That said, I have them switched off since the area is covered by a PIR activated floodlight.

Henry-F said:

Fixed focal length lens (I think I'm right in saying it's a fixed lens camera ie non optical zoom) means you will never be able to make best use of the available pixels. You'll either waste them on unwanted areas or not cover enough area.

You're right but depends on the placement of the camera. Where my camera is, the field of view covers exactly the area I want it to without zooming.

Henry-F said:

Out of the box it looks like it uses a proxy server which will be a potential bottleneck although to be fair you can, I think get round this if you have the IT skills.

It's optional yes - on the plus side, if your setup is simple (mine isn't) and you have a modern router, then it's rather clever - the camera uses UPnP to set the port forwarding on the router automatically, and finds the external IP address of the router and sends this to the EyeSpy server. The camera also has a DynDNS client built in so updates the server with the current external IP. Also you can store your still photos or video clips on their website rather than locally, thus solving the problem of the DVR being nicked in a burglary. And, the server makes it a doddle to view the camera on a smartphone as it converts the video to 3GP. Anyway I don't use all that - as I use 2 routers in series the camera can't work out the external IP address as the "middle" router doesn't pass that on, so instead I set up all my own port forwarding and DynDNS account. (for users that don't know how to do that, EyeSpy support will take them through it).

Henry-F said:

Not a fan of using your PC to store CCTV footage due to the resource hungry nature of CCTV and the fact it runs 24/7.

It doesn't need a PC at all - mine records to my networked Apple Time Capsule (a 2 terabyte server grade hard drive, with networking and security, basically), no computer is involved. In my case the Time Capsule is connected to the network wirelessly as I have it in the summer house as offsite backup, but that doesn't need to be the case - it can be ethernet. Any networked drive (NAS) will work of course, doesn't need to be Apple. In order to not affect other wireless kit on the network (TV, laptops) the Apple disc can connect on the 5.2GHz band, leaving 2.4GHz free.
The camera also has 2 types of motion detection - frame based with 4 user adjustable sized areas with their own sensitivity settings so you can blank bits off, and PIR - which is a lot more reliable, but won't work through a window of course which is what I'm doing. It also has a IO port - so you can trigger recording when the burglar alarm goes off, or vice versa (trigger the burglar alarm with the camera's PIR detector - or even trigger the burglar alarm via the web interface of the camera if you spot some shady character when you're on the beach with the iPhone!). Or it could switch on a light, and can turn on its own white LEDs upon detection. So yes, the camera has its own built in web server so you can view, operate PTZ, and access admin settings remotely. It will also email you the video clips or photos (and/or FTP them somewhere) when it detects motion, which you can determine as frame-based, PIR, IO port or a combination.

Henry-F said:

We champion the use of a dedicated DVR, (which is usually cheaper than going down the PC route).
It looks like a bit of a toy product rather than a serious CCTV solution. For certain applications it will have it's uses I'm sure, but we need our products to work well in all applications.

Dedicated DVR with 24/7 recording is better, agreed. But for what it is - a self contained IP camera - it's very good, and the UK based tech support is truly awesome. It doesn't quite do what I want though - which is for motion detection to trigger a 5 minute (or more) recording - it either records 24/7 or in max 5 second bursts on detection. That said, their developers are looking into doing this. And, the resolution could be better. They're working on a HD version (!) which could really kill an IP network, unless of course you stick it on a dedicated router on its own subnet which is easy to do.
Anyway, I bought this camera as a stop-gap really and to experiment with. Next I'll take it up to the garage and see how the wireless range is and what the impact on network traffic is, since I don't relish the idea of burying 40m or so of cable, especially as there's already a mains power cable down there somewhere as well.. If it works, and their developers remove the 5 second motion activated recording limit, then I may buy one of their external cameras. If not, I'll give you guys a call.
Anyway CCTV is a spectrum with this little camera at one end, professional installations at the other. In our 9 month old office building of 4000 people, the CCTV is made up of dozens of dome IP cameras - but they are £1,000 each (retail) so a little bit pricey for home use!

There's quite a lot to get through in there but I will try:

Re putting pressure on the router obviously the main issue is with the number of available channels on the wireless network. You are not using this but most people do.

Using a set of preset points to make a tour sounds like a great idea. Sadly when the camera is moving you won't get any useful footage and when the camera is pointing in one direction it isn't filming in the other. Often it is just a single frame from CCTV footage which captures the details necessary. You are taking a huge gamble and will inevitably find the camera was pointing the wrong way just at the wrong time.

Given a PTZ camera is 3 to 4 times the cost of the equivalent fixed camera simply fit more fixed cameras which film all the time.

You can control it from the moon for all I care but unless you are sitting there 24 hours a day it wont help you. If you feel the need to move the camera then it's mounted incorrectly or trying to do the job of 2 or more cameras.

The size and type of CCD sensor says a great deal about the camera's electronics. When we are designing a new camera spec the specific CCD and DSP models are crucial and can double the cost of a similar specification camera. In general terms the larger the image sensor the better. 1/3 inch sensors are 2.25 times larger than 1/4 inch sensors.

Whether IR or white light the fact is they will be of little or no use on a 0.5 lux camera because it isn't very sensitive. That said the way you arrive at a low lux figure is open to so many variables that it means very little in isolation.

CCTV technology isn't pixel rich. As such you need to be extremely precise in how you position and zoom your cameras when installing. In most cases the footage obtained is little more than scrap. A wide angle camera for instant is unlikely to capture sufficient detail for prosecution at anything over 3-5 metres distance.

With your remote storage etc I would be interested to know what resolution they are stored at. The obvious limitation would be the internet upload speed from your camera's location.

Your remote storage device is unlikely to have cost less than a stand alone DVR. You might argue that the storage device can provide for other applications than just your CCTV but remember CCTV is very resource hungry. You are filming 24 hours a day and that soon fills up a hard drive.

On the subject of hard drives you can not use normal computer hard drives to store CCTV footage 24 hours a day. You have to use quite specific AV grade drives if you are to avoid premature failure. A normal computer drive is not designed for the amount of data churn and constant running.

We supply to homes, smaller businesses, clubs, bars etc. They are generally running up to 16 cameras, though some have 30 plus cameras. The cameras are all on 1 site. Because we can use cat5 cable to join our cameras to the DVR we do not see the need for IP at this stage, largely on the basis of cost. £1,000 for a CCTV camera is ridiculous and our clients would roll about on the floor laughing. Most spend that or less on an entire CCTV system !

Even the most basic of stand alone DVR recorders would be able to handle you motion triggered requirements and be able to set a detection area on the screen etc. If you are wanting motion triggered recording then your PTZ function is straight out of the window, so you are left with an expensive fixed lens camera!

HD helps but it's very expensive to store the footage and you can usually achieve good enough results in D1 resolution by making sure your cameras are mounted well and zoomed in

The trick with good CCTV is keep it simple.

Good luck

Henry