Hydraulic Lifter Problem

[peterguk M500]

Hoping for some help here....

OK, i bought and installed a whole M400 engine/gearbox/turbos/ECU etc. assembly into my M12.

Engine had proven 3K miles before being written off in an accident.

Only mods i've carried out to the engine internals are uprated valve springs and head studs.

When i fire the engine up, the valve gear sounds like a bag of nails. Oil light goes out almost immediately, but an oil pressure gauge T'ed into one of the turbo oil hoses in the rear head shows it taking a second or 2 to reach 60psi cold, dropping to 15psi hot at idle. Within a few minutes valve gear is quiet. And stays quiet.

Once hot, switch off, leave an hour, restart, valve gear quiet. Same after 2 hours. Leave til next morning, problem returns.

So i'm guessing lifters are losing their oil. Drainback?

I've replaced the oil filter with another factory item, so eliminated anti-drainback valve. Oil is Silkolene ProS 5W40.

Turbos have restrictors inline, but tonight i've plugged the turbo oil lines to see if draining back through turbos.

Why are my lifters losing their oil? And how?

Any ideas?????????????????

Edited by peterguk M500 on Monday 25th April 13:50

[TuxMan]

Hi Pete , its normal for the lifters to clatter abit when starting up after a layup period , i assume they drain back down to the sump ?? Tux

[FUNKSTER UK]

I agree they are noisy on startup but only for a few seconds. I can leave mine a couple of months but it only takes 3 seconds or so to go quiet. Did you fit the M400 engine cooler? Could there be any issues there.

[2.5bluenob]

mine sounds the same but only for a second. if i use the car every day its only the first time in each day that its fired up. its been doing it for three years and still ok

[Fixanything]

Sure its not the M400 forged pistons (assuming original pistons)warming-up, little noisy when started from cold cold i.e. like not run for at least a day, normally 30 seconds most noise gone combination of lifter & forged piston), then the balance of any noise gone in a few minutes (Normal). Should not be apparent when temp and oil up to running temp. 15 psi about right warm idle, can be as low as 12 psi on dial if you've done a bit of racing / driving at limit.

[GTO600]

Fixanything said:

Sure its not the M400 forged pistons (assuming original pistons)warming-up, little noisy when started from cold cold i.e. like not run for at least a day, normally 30 seconds most noise gone combination of lifter & forged piston), then the balance of any noise gone in a few minutes (Normal). Should not be apparent when temp and oil up to running temp. 15 psi about right warm idle, can be as low as 12 psi on dial if you've done a bit of racing / driving at limit.

+ 1 - Agree sounds like early M400 engine

[peterguk M500]

Hi Guys

Firstly, apologies for not being around recently; lots of changes in domestic life...

OK, thanks for your replies.

It's definitly valvetrain noise. And "clatter" is the perfect description.

It does reduce within a minute or 2 on cold start, and completely silent when up to normal temp.

Maybe i'm being paranoid, but i'm sure when Dave B started up an M400 for me in the showroom, it was way quieter, and that car had been dormant for months.

Mine will "clatter" next morning. But if the consensus is not to worry, then i won't!

[R0162]

Hi Peter,

welcome back, was trying to get hold of you to meet up last time i was in UK but you were AWOL, i wanted to see how the beast was coming along. Will catch up with you next time i am over.

Chris

[D_G]

For reference, I can leave mine for weeks between startups and never have had any rattles on start up. Might be worth finding out if the M400 engines were modded in some way which makes the tappets rattle? Does seem a bit odd.
Might be worth checking the timing chain tensioner which would give a similar noise.

HTH

Dave

[joust]

Mine sat around for months over winter and didn't make any noise like you describe. Something isn't right, although it's probably not terminal if you run it like that as the Elise K-Series does that trick and is still going strong 12 years later.

J

[david.mt]

D_G said:

For reference, I can leave mine for weeks between startups and never have had any rattles on start up. Might be worth finding out if the M400 engines were modded in some way which makes the tappets rattle? Does seem a bit odd.
Might be worth checking the timing chain tensioner which would give a similar noise.

HTH

Dave

Not particularly helpful but my M400 would fire up from cold (and after weeks/months) and sound sweet within seconds not minutes.

The water pump belt would sound a bit strange (as they don't have tensioners) but once you add one that noise went away.

Certainly doesn't sound "normal".

[andygtt]

when my main bearing went it sounded just like rattly tappets... so dont dismiss rattly pistons if they are not offset pin.

[peterguk M500]

OK, so Gregg on the US forum said:

You can pull the valve cover off when engine cold and measure the "gap" with a feeler gauge between the finger follower and the cam lobe when the lobe is at 180 degrees to max lobe lift. There should be no gap that you can get the feeler gauge in.

OK, so the plot thickens...

With engine stone cold, I pulled the front cam cover, and i can't get the thinnest of my feeler gauges in between any of the cam heels and rollers.

[R0162]

peterguk M500 said:

OK, so Gregg on the US forum said:

You can pull the valve cover off when engine cold and measure the "gap" with a feeler gauge between the finger follower and the cam lobe when the lobe is at 180 degrees to max lobe lift. There should be no gap that you can get the feeler gauge in.

OK, so the plot thickens...

With engine stone cold, I pulled the front cam cover, and i can't get the thinnest of my feeler gauges in between any of the cam heels and rollers.

There you have it then, is that supposed to happen on hydraulics?

[peterguk M500]

Well it seems as though although it sounds like the clatter is the valve gear, it is not.

So it is defintely temperature based, not oil pressure. And it is across the whole engine.

Piston slap??

[R0162]

Well the fact it goes away when the engine warms up, then it tells you that something has expanded due to the heat, hence the noise going awa.
Maybe your engine is taking longer to warm up than others? or maybe your piston gap tolerances are a fraction bigger than others?
I have no idea personally but just thought i would put forward some things for you to think about or look into.

[peterguk M500]

Cheers Chris

I've heard the early M400 engines had this problem, and as a result, changed the pistons to a different manufacturer.

So i guess i'll have to live with it...

[bigsmiffy]

Hi My 2005 M400 also suffers from this, copy the links this is what the previous owner found out

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

http://www.stdrivers.co.uk/forum/topic/6059-st220-...

Hope this helps

Regards

Tom