Btcc support series/ new cars for btcc
Discussion
2 questions really.
What do people think of the support series?
What new cars will teams enter when the new ngtc rules come in?
Me i think the support series need a change
FR need to go to pretty much 2 identical champonships run in this country doesn't work and low numbers prove this would rather see formula ford than formula renault.
Porsche carrera cup needs to go i haven't seen a intresting race should it be on the toca package rather see it on the gt package.
Ginetta like both of these series always good close racing and nice to see a british manafacture on the bill.
Renault clio got to expensive and grids have dropped should another series take over it fiesta, 500 abarth mayby.
With ngtc staring to take affect what cars will you think or would like to be on the grid in 2013.
888 needs new car and with thornley running the insgnia later this year will they continue with vauxhall and enter the new astra.
WSR bmw getting old, experence with MG between 2001-2006 and with mg intrested to come back will the new 6 be on the grid.
Dynamics Civic is also getting old been with us since 2007 and pretty sure its too small to run in ngtc, will they run accord
Amd golf even though a new car it will be too small, will they continue with a jetta/bora or go with the passat.
Rml will they even take part i dont think so personaly but will they continue with chevrolet.
Team aon focus built too super 2000 need a new car mondeo
Motorbase focus also built to super 2000 no idea if they can build there own car.
Would like to see jaguar, mercedes, mg, peugoet return
What do people think of the support series?
What new cars will teams enter when the new ngtc rules come in?
Me i think the support series need a change
FR need to go to pretty much 2 identical champonships run in this country doesn't work and low numbers prove this would rather see formula ford than formula renault.
Porsche carrera cup needs to go i haven't seen a intresting race should it be on the toca package rather see it on the gt package.
Ginetta like both of these series always good close racing and nice to see a british manafacture on the bill.
Renault clio got to expensive and grids have dropped should another series take over it fiesta, 500 abarth mayby.
With ngtc staring to take affect what cars will you think or would like to be on the grid in 2013.
888 needs new car and with thornley running the insgnia later this year will they continue with vauxhall and enter the new astra.
WSR bmw getting old, experence with MG between 2001-2006 and with mg intrested to come back will the new 6 be on the grid.
Dynamics Civic is also getting old been with us since 2007 and pretty sure its too small to run in ngtc, will they run accord
Amd golf even though a new car it will be too small, will they continue with a jetta/bora or go with the passat.
Rml will they even take part i dont think so personaly but will they continue with chevrolet.
Team aon focus built too super 2000 need a new car mondeo
Motorbase focus also built to super 2000 no idea if they can build there own car.
Would like to see jaguar, mercedes, mg, peugoet return
Edited by MG CHRIS on Monday 2nd May 14:57
I watch all the BTCC, Ginetta and Ginetta Junior races.
I fast forward through the Porsche, single seater stuff and sometimes skip parts of the Clio races.
In the wet I`ll watch the Porsche and Clios but I`ve never watched more than a couple of laps of the Formula Renault (if thats what they are).
I fast forward through the Porsche, single seater stuff and sometimes skip parts of the Clio races.
In the wet I`ll watch the Porsche and Clios but I`ve never watched more than a couple of laps of the Formula Renault (if thats what they are).
The only thing I agree with is the F Renault should probably go. Put it on the F3 support and put F Ford with the BTCC. I like the porsches it's probably the most serious series over a BTCC weekend in terms of race strategy and racecraft that goes on. Also know a few ppl doing it so it's good to have it live on tv all the time!
Clio grids have faltered a bit but I'm not sure something like the Fiesta ST series would have the pace to put on the show that's required. But if you could get full grids after adding say the mountune 185 package and sequential boxes I think it would be equally as good as clios and cheaper to do but prob still slightly slower.
Clio grids have faltered a bit but I'm not sure something like the Fiesta ST series would have the pace to put on the show that's required. But if you could get full grids after adding say the mountune 185 package and sequential boxes I think it would be equally as good as clios and cheaper to do but prob still slightly slower.
EDLT said:
I'm not sure why you think half the grid needs to replace their cars 
The new ngtc regs need new cars like the audi and avensis due to several factors.Min length of 4.4m which mean the smaller cars are not allowed ie golf
Cars have to be in production to be allowed to compete so the vectra, lacetie is not allowed
Due to the standardised sub frames and standared parts its easier to build a new car with them on than to adapt an exsiting car to ngtc
There are other changes which means it easier to build a new car than to upgrade a super 2000s car. To be honest half the cars on the grid are getting old cars anyway so in a couple of years times they will need to be changed.
Dynamics have stated that this is likely to be the last year for the civic and are building a new car for next year.
I like Formula Renault but am not totally impartial so my opinion doesn't really count. It's the top single seater series before F3 and a whole different ballpark to FFord with a far higher standard of drivers but with sponsorship hard to come by the grid has dwindled a bit.
I'd lose the Ginetta Juniors, they're just too slow and I'd rather see another series with different cars, not just one make stuff. The Porsches are really dull too, too much variation in the standard of drivers and not as much drama as a 450bhp car should have.
There are a few new cars being talked about but most are keeping schtum at the moment. It will take some balls to actually drop the S2000 cars though, especially given how poor the NGTC stuff has looked so far. My money is on allowing 1.6T WTCC spec cars as well, otherwise there will be no BMW or Chevrolet cars.
I'd lose the Ginetta Juniors, they're just too slow and I'd rather see another series with different cars, not just one make stuff. The Porsches are really dull too, too much variation in the standard of drivers and not as much drama as a 450bhp car should have.
There are a few new cars being talked about but most are keeping schtum at the moment. It will take some balls to actually drop the S2000 cars though, especially given how poor the NGTC stuff has looked so far. My money is on allowing 1.6T WTCC spec cars as well, otherwise there will be no BMW or Chevrolet cars.
Dont forget that the new ngtc cars are being developed by small teams and had the cars arrived late and way too close to the start of the season. what it needs is a top team like wsr, 888 to develope a ngtc car because at the moment they are looking poor. But will have to wait till the proton and insgnia join later on. Cant see gow allowing wtcc cars more equalitions needed and more confusion but i think bmw and chevrolet will not enter with a ngtc car. But if other cars enter and numbers increase it wouldn't be to much of a lose if we lose them. I think next year we will see the big teams fielding the new cars. One thing is aon have just devloped a new car to s2000 which will last 2 years then need to build a new car that just doesn;t make sense for me.
There isn't the money to develop NGTC cars at the moment. Triple 8 did start to build an Insignia for Vauxhall until they pulled out, now just like any other team they struggle for budget to run what they have, let alone build a new car from the ground up.
The airwaves fords are 2 years old, all the vectras are what ? 4 ? 3 at least. The civics have been around for a few years too. The AON fords are exactly the same as the older ones, just different body panels so were a cheap build, the stock car is almost 4.4m long anyway, so with the extra depth of the bumpers on a touring car it meets that NGTC reg at least.
I think the Insignia may prove to be too big and heavy - the new astra is long enough and only a tad too narrow, we'll have to wait for the sporthatch version to come out and see if thats much different but I reckon it could be a better bet.
The only way new "full" NGTC cars will happen is if manufacturers come back to the series and right now they don't need to - for one thing, there is no-one to race. One has to wonder how long Honda will stick around - racing doesn't fit with their environmentally friendly image (remember the F1 "earth car" ?) and with the death of the Type R models (Civic at least) I can't imagine too many Honda owners/prospective owners take much interest in racing.
Either way we're a hell of a long way from the supertouring era.
The airwaves fords are 2 years old, all the vectras are what ? 4 ? 3 at least. The civics have been around for a few years too. The AON fords are exactly the same as the older ones, just different body panels so were a cheap build, the stock car is almost 4.4m long anyway, so with the extra depth of the bumpers on a touring car it meets that NGTC reg at least.
I think the Insignia may prove to be too big and heavy - the new astra is long enough and only a tad too narrow, we'll have to wait for the sporthatch version to come out and see if thats much different but I reckon it could be a better bet.
The only way new "full" NGTC cars will happen is if manufacturers come back to the series and right now they don't need to - for one thing, there is no-one to race. One has to wonder how long Honda will stick around - racing doesn't fit with their environmentally friendly image (remember the F1 "earth car" ?) and with the death of the Type R models (Civic at least) I can't imagine too many Honda owners/prospective owners take much interest in racing.
Either way we're a hell of a long way from the supertouring era.
That not techincly true the avensis and audi are full ngtc they are small teams, so is dan welch motorsport when they will enter with the proton and also thornley even though bigger team than either of the other 3 are still a small team compared too the likes of 888, rml, wsr.
How can team aon just put new body panels on the old chassis the 3 cars aon had were sold to motorbase unless they had more than 3 cars, then aon cars are new. The vectra and civic is entering there 5 year so i would see new cars from them pretty soon.
I dont want it to become like the super touring againg the money spent was stupid and when manafacture dropped out few indy could take there place also that was in the past lets move on.
How can team aon just put new body panels on the old chassis the 3 cars aon had were sold to motorbase unless they had more than 3 cars, then aon cars are new. The vectra and civic is entering there 5 year so i would see new cars from them pretty soon.
I dont want it to become like the super touring againg the money spent was stupid and when manafacture dropped out few indy could take there place also that was in the past lets move on.
What I mean about the AON fords is that the current model ford is not an all new car, its just different body panels on the old chassis (as far as I've seen). So whilst the actual cars are new the chassis is already known - suspension setups, roll cage etc would be the same.
Yeah the Avensis and A4 are NGTC cars, but they can't get the things to finish a race. Granted they are on tiny budgets but right now doesn't look too promising does it.
Ultimately if teams like WSR, Motorbase, Triple 8 etc are going to build NGTC cars they will pass the cost on to the drivers, unless they get factory backing. Things may be different in a years time when they start looking for budgets to do this but at the moment drivers are having to work hard to find sponsorship just to run, let alone build new cars.
Yes money did get daft during the supertouring era but you can't deny it was a golden era in terms of entertainment and great racing. Imagine the same with a moderate budget cap?
Yeah the Avensis and A4 are NGTC cars, but they can't get the things to finish a race. Granted they are on tiny budgets but right now doesn't look too promising does it.
Ultimately if teams like WSR, Motorbase, Triple 8 etc are going to build NGTC cars they will pass the cost on to the drivers, unless they get factory backing. Things may be different in a years time when they start looking for budgets to do this but at the moment drivers are having to work hard to find sponsorship just to run, let alone build new cars.
Yes money did get daft during the supertouring era but you can't deny it was a golden era in terms of entertainment and great racing. Imagine the same with a moderate budget cap?
It will be more expensive granted for current teams to build new cars but for new drivers and teams it would surley be cheaper to build a new car at £125,000 apparently cost of ngtc car then to buy old s2000 cars which ive seen for sale for more. So i think it should even it self out on grid numbers. I think we will see teams not return but with new teams and drivers entering then it should get better.
Cant say much about super touring cars as i was too young to remember watching it and what ive seen on utube is yes it was more popular back then and plenty of manafactures the racing hasn't really changed that much still as close now as it was then.
Cant say much about super touring cars as i was too young to remember watching it and what ive seen on utube is yes it was more popular back then and plenty of manafactures the racing hasn't really changed that much still as close now as it was then.
For me, binning the demolition derby (Ginetta Juniors) and the Formula Renaults and replace them with some flavour of classic touring and GT cars (anywhere from the 60s to 80s) would make the package measurably more compelling. However, I don't mind it as is because if there wasn't something to fast forward through on the Sky+ box then it really would take all day to get through. On the whole though - good package and the ITV4HD coverage has to be considered a major coup.
Caterhams need to be on the bill - but basically you have to buy in to the TOCA package or be invited.
Clios will stay as by that Formula Renault will stay unless Renault pull the plug (highly unlikely)
Ginetta's will stay no doubt - the money is too good.
And there's no way porsche would let their series drop off. Even though the UK series is the regarded as a very poor cousin to the German Cup.
Unfortunately I don't see much change coming
Clios will stay as by that Formula Renault will stay unless Renault pull the plug (highly unlikely)
Ginetta's will stay no doubt - the money is too good.
And there's no way porsche would let their series drop off. Even though the UK series is the regarded as a very poor cousin to the German Cup.
Unfortunately I don't see much change coming
the SRO group - promotors of f3, gt and the fia gt champs - now own clios and formula renault. I think its likely we will see these two champs go to the f3 support bill within the next couple of years when their btcc contract runs out. Formula ford will then return to btcc support race schedule (YAY 
) and another championship will fill the space left by the clios.
I'd personally like to see the resurection of the super weekenders from the early 2000's where btcc, f3 and gt were all on the same weekend with all their support races - was fantastic
. sadly though due to selfish series owners and teams we won't see this happen as they all want to be the premier race on a weekend.
) and another championship will fill the space left by the clios.I'd personally like to see the resurection of the super weekenders from the early 2000's where btcc, f3 and gt were all on the same weekend with all their support races - was fantastic
. sadly though due to selfish series owners and teams we won't see this happen as they all want to be the premier race on a weekend.I would of thought that most tracks would run out of paddock space for a "super weekender".. 24 touring cars, how many in F3 ? there must be 15-18 porsches, similar number of clios, 20 Ginettas ? then all the rest of the F3 bill too..
I think the porsches need to go, its boring racing because they are basically GT cars doing a half hour race - theres not often much passing and they generally keep away from kerbs and have quite good traction so there just isn't much action.
I know Alan Gow has said that pit stops aren't coming back to BTCC, but it seems we just have 3 races that are the same at each meeting, could something be done to add to it - mandatory pit stop or something ? maybe go back to sprint race and a longer race ?
I think the porsches need to go, its boring racing because they are basically GT cars doing a half hour race - theres not often much passing and they generally keep away from kerbs and have quite good traction so there just isn't much action.
I know Alan Gow has said that pit stops aren't coming back to BTCC, but it seems we just have 3 races that are the same at each meeting, could something be done to add to it - mandatory pit stop or something ? maybe go back to sprint race and a longer race ?
I'm not suggesting all meetings should have them, just maybe a couple of year, pull in some really big crowds and get some serious exposure, lets face it, most of the general public have no idea what 'f3' and 'btcc' are. Silverstone is an obvious candidate due to its huu-uuge paddock(s now with the two pitlanes. potentially the new snetterton too??
Anyone else think the series is shooting itself in the foot here?
In the Super Touring days the Mondeo, Cavalier, 406, Laguna et al ruled the sales charts. Nowadays however the Astra, Golf & Focus are the volume sellers - so why the trend towards "bigger" bodyshells? Bigger crumple zones for Messrs Plato & Neal perhaps?
In the Super Touring days the Mondeo, Cavalier, 406, Laguna et al ruled the sales charts. Nowadays however the Astra, Golf & Focus are the volume sellers - so why the trend towards "bigger" bodyshells? Bigger crumple zones for Messrs Plato & Neal perhaps?
Misty-eyed people on forums saying "it's not what it used to be". 
I'd happily lose a touring car race to fit another support in. Pitstops would probably confuse this casual fan that everything seems to be aimed at these days.
I'd like to see something like the Historic Touring Car Championship we used to have in the 90s, that was a lot of fun to watch, especially in the wet!
Send the Renaults off to the SRO package, give us the FFords and the VWs.
I'd happily lose a touring car race to fit another support in. Pitstops would probably confuse this casual fan that everything seems to be aimed at these days.
I'd like to see something like the Historic Touring Car Championship we used to have in the 90s, that was a lot of fun to watch, especially in the wet!
Send the Renaults off to the SRO package, give us the FFords and the VWs.
BraveSirRobin said:
Anyone else think the series is shooting itself in the foot here?
In the Super Touring days the Mondeo, Cavalier, 406, Laguna et al ruled the sales charts. Nowadays however the Astra, Golf & Focus are the volume sellers - so why the trend towards "bigger" bodyshells? Bigger crumple zones for Messrs Plato & Neal perhaps?
Good point. I'm not sure what the reason for only allowing larger cars is, I'm assuming in theory they are faster overall but I'm undecided which models the manufacturers would prefer to run if they were looking at returning.In the Super Touring days the Mondeo, Cavalier, 406, Laguna et al ruled the sales charts. Nowadays however the Astra, Golf & Focus are the volume sellers - so why the trend towards "bigger" bodyshells? Bigger crumple zones for Messrs Plato & Neal perhaps?
Would they want to run the most popular model or the larger "flagship" model?
Really I think the BTCC should try to stay aligned with the WTCC as much as possible, a transferable set of regulations means the series is more accessible to other competitors and independants find it easier and cheaper to take ex WTCC cars in as well as manufactuers then having no development budget to run in britain aswell.
Saying that I don't know if I like the idea of 1.6l touring cars, but if they sound alright then I wouldn't mind.
xr287 said:
Really I think the BTCC should try to stay aligned with the WTCC as much as possible, a transferable set of regulations means the series is more accessible to other competitors and independants find it easier and cheaper to take ex WTCC cars in as well as manufactuers then having no development budget to run in britain aswell.
Saying that I don't know if I like the idea of 1.6l touring cars, but if they sound alright then I wouldn't mind.
That's what the S2000 rules were all about, if there's a fairly common template for all production derived cars, that's reasonably cheap to do, the manufacturers will be more interested in supporting it. Saying that I don't know if I like the idea of 1.6l touring cars, but if they sound alright then I wouldn't mind.
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