section 59 - how worried should i be?

[undred orse]

Hi all,
having just bought a new car with a dealer fitted and manufacturer approved optional exhaust (an abarth 500 ss with monza exhaust) i'm a little worried by this section.i'm not the type to be driving like an idiot around town being 45 and respectful of 30 limits etc but the car is noisy - in a good way to me - even when driving normally and does get some looks.

so what are the chances of a section 59 notice for just driving normally i.e. no wheelspin,below the limit etc but with a noise that may cause the odd lentil muncher to look?

my understanding is that the standard of driving needs to be careless or inconsiderate before a notice can be issued.I definately don't want the car lifted to some storage compound where it will be damaged no doubt.

thanks.

[anonymous-user]

You're right, You need to be driving in an antisocial manner and at the same time committing and offence of either careless driving or off road driving. You've nothing to worry about.

[peterguk M500]

sebdangerfield said:

In theory You need to be driving in an antisocial manner and at the same time committing and offence of either careless driving or off road driving.

EFA

[youngsyr]

Look up the actual act, but I believe the wording is something along the lines of the officer has to have reasonable grounds to suspect that you are driving in contravention of section 3 (careless and inconsiderate driving) or another section that covers offroad driving.

You don't actually need to be driving in contravention of section 3 for a S.59 to stick, all it needs is an officer's suspicion that you were.

[Frix]

You should be subject to proceedings under Section 3 or 34 RTA 1988 for a Section 59 PRA 2002 warning to be used. If you are not reported for either of those offences it should not be issued.

[youngsyr]

Frix said:

You should be subject to proceedings under Section 3 or 34 RTA 1988 for a Section 59 PRA 2002 warning to be used. If you are not reported for either of those offences it should not be issued.

That's not my understanding from reading the statute. As I understand it (and what seems to be the reality from anecdotal evidence) is that the officer only needs to have reasonable grounds to suspect you of driving in a manner that contravenes Section 3 or Section 34 to give a S.59. There is no need for you to be actually reported for the Section 3 or 34.

Police Reform Act 2002 said:

59 Vehicles used in manner causing alarm, distress or annoyance

(1) Where a constable in uniform has reasonable grounds for believing that a motor vehicle is being used on any occasion in a manner which—

(a) contravenes section 3 or 34 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 (c. 52) (careless and inconsiderate driving and prohibition of off-road driving), and

(b) is causing, or is likely to cause, alarm, distress or annoyance to members of the public,

he shall have the powers set out in subsection (3).

(2) A constable in uniform shall also have the powers set out in subsection (3) where he has reasonable grounds for believing that a motor vehicle has been used on any occasion in a manner falling within subsection (1).

(3) Those powers are—
(a) power, if the motor vehicle is moving, to order the person driving it to stop the vehicle;
(b) power to seize and remove the motor vehicle;
(c) power, for the purposes of exercising a power falling within paragraph (a) or (b), to enter any premises on which he has reasonable grounds for believing the motor vehicle to be;
(d) power to use reasonable force, if necessary, in the exercise of any power conferred by any of paragraphs to (a) to (c).

(4) A constable shall not seize a motor vehicle in the exercise of the powers conferred on him by this section unless—
(a) he has warned the person appearing to him to be the person whose use falls within subsection (1) that he will seize it, if that use continues or is repeated; and
(b) it appears to him that the use has continued or been repeated after the the warning.

(5) Subsection (4) does not require a warning to be given by a constable on any occasion on which he would otherwise have the power to seize a motor vehicle under this section if—
(a) the circumstances make it impracticable for him to give the warning;
(b) the constable has already on that occasion given a warning under that subsection in respect of any use of that motor vehicle or of another motor vehicle by that person or any other person;
(c) the constable has reasonable grounds for believing that such a warning has been given on that occasion otherwise than by him; or
(d) the constable has reasonable grounds for believing that the person whose use of that motor vehicle on that occasion would justify the seizure is a person to whom a warning under that subsection has been given (whether or not by that constable or in respect the same vehicle or the same or a similar use) on a previous occasion in the previous twelve months.
(6) A person who fails to comply with an order under subsection (3)(a) is guilty of an offence and shall be liable, on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale.
(7) Subsection (3)(c) does not authorise entry into a private dwelling house.
(8) The powers conferred on a constable by this section shall be exercisable only at a time when regulations under section 60 are in force.
(9) In this section—
“driving” has the same meaning as in the Road Traffic Act 1988 (c. 52);
“motor vehicle” means any mechanically propelled vehicle, whether or not it is intended or adapted for use on roads; and
“private dwelling house” does not include any garage or other structure occupied with the dwelling house, or any land appurtenant to the dwelling house.

[oldsoak]

OP...
Not 'having a pop' but...IMHO,
You've gotta ask yourself some serious questions
Like...
Is the car noisy by design or has a modification made it so?
If your standard of driving makes you worry about S59's and the like, perhaps you should be thinking of improving?

[fluffnik]

It's a filthy law that needs destroyed.

Write to your MP.

[mrmr96]

oldsoak said:

OP...
Not 'having a pop' but...IMHO,
You've gotta ask yourself some serious questions
Like...
Is the car noisy by design or has a modification made it so?
If your standard of driving makes you worry about S59's and the like, perhaps you should be thinking of improving?

It's had a mod - that's clear from the OP.

He's not concerned about his standard of driving, he's concerned about the noise of his car.

[oldsoak]

mrmr96 said:

It's had a mod - that's clear from the OP.

No... it's had an approved exhaust fitted by the dealer and my initial query still stands ...is it modified to make it louder or is it louder by design.
If it is louder than a bog standard vehicle of the same make then he will be in for a lot of grief and could well pick up a S59 if plod deems his driving to be below standard and his car is (by vertue of it being louder than originally manufactured) causing annoyance etc.

mrmr96 said:

He's not concerned about his standard of driving, he's concerned about the noise of his car.

He must be concerned otherwise why did he pose the question?

[supersport]

youngsyr said:

Police Reform Act 2002 said:

59 Vehicles used in manner causing alarm, distress or annoyance

(1) Where a constable in uniform has reasonable grounds for believing that a motor vehicle is being used on any occasion in a manner which—

(a) contravenes section 3 or 34 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 (c. 52) (careless and inconsiderate driving and prohibition of off-road driving), and

(b) is causing, or is likely to cause, alarm, distress or annoyance to members of the public,

Does this include loud colours, having been used to ram raid Halford whilst covered in glue, driving at 30 mph on perfectly clear bit of 60pmh road, driving in the middle lane of the motorway or even having offensively ugly passengers in, being a bus or taxi?

[mrmr96]

oldsoak said:

mrmr96 said:

It's had a mod - that's clear from the OP.

No... it's had an approved exhaust fitted by the dealer and my initial query still stands ...is it modified to make it louder or is it louder by design.
If it is louder than a bog standard vehicle of the same make then he will be in for a lot of grief and could well pick up a S59 if plod deems his driving to be below standard and his car is (by vertue of it being louder than originally manufactured) causing annoyance etc.

mrmr96 said:

He's not concerned about his standard of driving, he's concerned about the noise of his car.

He must be concerned otherwise why did he pose the question?

Re 'mod' it's a non-standard exhaust. Therefore it's a mod.

Re driving standards, do I really have to requote the OP on the same blimmin page?

undred orse said:

what are the chances of a section 59 notice for just driving normally i.e. no wheelspin,below the limit etc but with a noise that may cause the odd lentil muncher to look?

[oldsoak]

mrmr96 said:

oldsoak said:

mrmr96 said:

It's had a mod - that's clear from the OP.

No... it's had an approved exhaust fitted by the dealer and my initial query still stands ...is it modified to make it louder or is it louder by design.
If it is louder than a bog standard vehicle of the same make then he will be in for a lot of grief and could well pick up a S59 if plod deems his driving to be below standard and his car is (by vertue of it being louder than originally manufactured) causing annoyance etc.

mrmr96 said:

He's not concerned about his standard of driving, he's concerned about the noise of his car.

He must be concerned otherwise why did he pose the question?

Re 'mod' it's a non-standard exhaust. Therefore it's a mod.

Re driving standards, do I really have to requote the OP on the same blimmin page?

undred orse said:

what are the chances of a section 59 notice for just driving normally i.e. no wheelspin,below the limit etc but with a noise that may cause the odd lentil muncher to look?

No you don't and you don't have to act like a cock either.

You don't get S59's simply because a vehicle is loud...there needs to be other considerations like...err... standard of driving....

Here's a quote of something you missed...

OP said:

with a dealer fitted and manufacturer approved optional exhaust (an abarth 500 ss with monza exhaust) i'm a little worried by this section.

Now unless you see somewhere in the OP that tells us that the car he's bought comes fitted from the factory with one of those exhausts then my question still stands.

[fluffnik]

oldsoak said:

He must be concerned otherwise why did he pose the question?

I drive a very quiet car, most moderately when in the presence of others, and I'm concerned by the intrinsic fascist twuntery of S59.

[mrmr96]

oldsoak said:

You don't get S59's simply because a vehicle is loud...

There you go, see, you've answered the OP's question.

Both you and I know that the stadard of driving needs to be poor to get a S59, the OP didn't and that was his question. Therefore the provenance of the exhaust is of no consequence with respect to this isolated question.

[oldsoak]

fluffnik said:

oldsoak said:

He must be concerned otherwise why did he pose the question?

I drive a very quiet car, most moderately when in the presence of others, and I'm concerned by the intrinsic fascist twuntery of S59.

I'm sure you are Fluff...but for the purposes of the OP we'll just have to forget how much we don't like S59 for a bit and get on with answering the OP question...whaddya say?

[oldsoak]

mrmr96 said:

oldsoak said:

You don't get S59's simply because a vehicle is loud...

There you go, see, you've answered the OP's question.

Both you and I know that the stadard of driving needs to be poor to get a S59, the OP didn't and that was his question. Therefore the provenance of the exhaust is of no consequence with respect to this isolated question.

PH ....where pedantry matters
Jesus H...it must be a slow day....

[undred orse]

thanks for the replies and interest shown.

i suppose that my concern is that with a car that is noisier than the normal hatch,suv etc even if the standard of driving is ok can i still get a notice simply because of the (legal otherwise and not outrageous) noise that does attract some looks.

if i did get a notice then it seems that i'd have to seek a judicial review as i understand there is no appeal.my concern would be confiscation of the car which is my pride and joy weekend car.i would fight to avoid that at all costs and would not be afraid of going to court and representing myself for a review.

perhaps i am over reacting but i am paranoid about having everything 100% with my cars and avoiding any trouble.

just to confirm the monza exhaust is abarth approved and a dealer fit option as is the ss kit.it is louder than standard in the same way that a boxster sports exhaust is louder than standard but it is legal and is fitted as standard to the limited edition abarth 695

Edited by undred orse on Monday 12th July 15:02

[eightseventhree]

There are plenty of people running the monza exhausts on the A500 without issues

http://www.abarthforum.co.uk/

Its not that loud!

[philthy]

oldsoak said:

You don't get S59's simply because a vehicle is loud...there needs to be other considerations like...err... standard of driving....

Can they not be issued just because the vehicle is noisy, and annoying a MOP?
I made a complaint about one of the local dheads, after being buzzed by his stupid scooter exhaust for the umpteenth time. I was under the impression he had been given a S59.