Engine swaps: why don't they use these engines?
Discussion
Hi,
I've been reading alot lately about the elise and their engine swaps.
However, I can't stop wondering why I haven't seen one of these engines in an elise/exige:
2l turbo from the Lancer Evo
2l/2.5l turbo from the Subaru Impreza WRX (STI)
2l turbo (sr20det) from the Nissan 200SX/Sunny GTI-R(that's a 4WD)
or the rotaryengine from an rx7/rx8(finding the right transmission is the problem here, I guess?)
All these engines have great potential, and since they came from a 4WD, there transmission should work for the MR setup of the elise/exige(?). They also use those turbo audi engines, why taking those above these?
I've been reading alot lately about the elise and their engine swaps.
However, I can't stop wondering why I haven't seen one of these engines in an elise/exige:
2l turbo from the Lancer Evo
2l/2.5l turbo from the Subaru Impreza WRX (STI)
2l turbo (sr20det) from the Nissan 200SX/Sunny GTI-R(that's a 4WD)
or the rotaryengine from an rx7/rx8(finding the right transmission is the problem here, I guess?)
All these engines have great potential, and since they came from a 4WD, there transmission should work for the MR setup of the elise/exige(?). They also use those turbo audi engines, why taking those above these?
Well, do you know a site where I could find the weights of those engines?
I'm not so certain that for example an audi engine is lighter than an evo engine.
Also, do you have a topic/site of the rotary conversion? I've been looking for such a conversion, but couldn't find anything. It's probably one of the best engines they could put in an elise(very light, but very powerful, AND revhappy)
I'm not so certain that for example an audi engine is lighter than an evo engine.
Also, do you have a topic/site of the rotary conversion? I've been looking for such a conversion, but couldn't find anything. It's probably one of the best engines they could put in an elise(very light, but very powerful, AND revhappy)
Forgot to mention the Focus ST engine, thought of that one too.
Also, that is EXACTLY why I'm asking, because I'm not aware of the size of the engines and the engineroom in the elise.
Also, can't the standard gearboxes be used, since the car is normally an FWD, so I guess the engine layout is the same as in an FWD car?
Also, that is EXACTLY why I'm asking, because I'm not aware of the size of the engines and the engineroom in the elise.
Also, can't the standard gearboxes be used, since the car is normally an FWD, so I guess the engine layout is the same as in an FWD car?
Scuffers said:
ignoring weights, think physical size, Evo engine is not exactly small, and what are you going to use for a gearbox?
it's also not that great an engine, yes you can boost it to death, but you can do that with just about any engine.
Subaru engines might well be great, but they are also massive as they are flat 4's, how do you propose to fit one in the space (and back to what you are going to use for a gearbox?
People keep going on about Focus ST engines, but that are straight 5's, how wide are they then?
what I am saying is consider how big an engine is in the context of how small the Elise is before suggesting something patently stupid.
it's also not that great an engine, yes you can boost it to death, but you can do that with just about any engine.
Subaru engines might well be great, but they are also massive as they are flat 4's, how do you propose to fit one in the space (and back to what you are going to use for a gearbox?
People keep going on about Focus ST engines, but that are straight 5's, how wide are they then?
what I am saying is consider how big an engine is in the context of how small the Elise is before suggesting something patently stupid.
AFAIK they are already busy with that
However, that engine seems to be FAR from reliable and needs very frequent rebuilds. Also, 50k for a more powerful engine is quite a difference with 10-15k
what you want is an 2.6L V8 supercharged - as light as they come, and 550bhp...you should be able to pick one up for £30k, then a £20K box, and say £10K for someone to get it in ..then you will have something that no-one else has gone through with yet
However, that engine seems to be FAR from reliable and needs very frequent rebuilds. Also, 50k for a more powerful engine is quite a difference with 10-15kbogie said:
Terror Factor said:
Well, do you know a site where I could find the weights of those engines?
I'm not so certain that for example an audi engine is lighter than an evo engine.
Also, do you have a topic/site of the rotary conversion? I've been looking for such a conversion, but couldn't find anything. It's probably one of the best engines they could put in an elise(very light, but very powerful, AND revhappy)
try the engine conversion forum on www.seloc.org for a huge amount of info, and links n pics to just about every engine conversion ever...and dozens and dozens of threads over the last 10 years as to why/why not an engine is in the back of an Elise...I'm not so certain that for example an audi engine is lighter than an evo engine.
Also, do you have a topic/site of the rotary conversion? I've been looking for such a conversion, but couldn't find anything. It's probably one of the best engines they could put in an elise(very light, but very powerful, AND revhappy)
what you want is an 2.6L V8 supercharged - as light as they come, and 550bhp...you should be able to pick one up for £30k, then a £20K box, and say £10K for someone to get it in ..then you will have something that no-one else has gone through with yet
Well, that's why I'm asking. You've only mentioned something of the evo and wrx engine, you didn't say anything about the rotary engine, nor the SR20DET.
Also, someone mentioned the heat issues, I wondered why the heat wasn't an issue with the audi and supercharged vtec. Is that so farfetched?
EDIT: other than that, there are people who succeed in putting a chevy V8 in an elise/exige, so everything is possible.
EDIT 2: The Evo engine is an FWD engine, so the layout would be appropiate for the Elise.
The WRX engine(well, some version of it) is also used in a FF car, so the layout would also work with the Elise.
The SR20DET is also used in an FF car. So there is no issue in that aspect, except for the rotary engine.
Also, someone mentioned the heat issues, I wondered why the heat wasn't an issue with the audi and supercharged vtec. Is that so farfetched?
EDIT: other than that, there are people who succeed in putting a chevy V8 in an elise/exige, so everything is possible.
EDIT 2: The Evo engine is an FWD engine, so the layout would be appropiate for the Elise.
The WRX engine(well, some version of it) is also used in a FF car, so the layout would also work with the Elise.
The SR20DET is also used in an FF car. So there is no issue in that aspect, except for the rotary engine.
Edited by Terror Factor on Thursday 4th February 21:26
Well, THAT is a useful reply, thank you.
The rotary engines are beautyful pieces of metal, but the transmission will be a problem. Someone here mentioned the usage of a rotary in the elise/exige. I'm wondering if anyone has a link? A rotary powered elise would be
EDIT: Scuffers, you might want to say why, instead of ranting, people might learn something, since you seem to know it all.
The rotary engines are beautyful pieces of metal, but the transmission will be a problem. Someone here mentioned the usage of a rotary in the elise/exige. I'm wondering if anyone has a link? A rotary powered elise would be
EDIT: Scuffers, you might want to say why, instead of ranting, people might learn something, since you seem to know it all.
cyberface said:
Engines originally intended to be mounted longitudinally wouldn't work in an Elise because the original platform was to use a *small* FWD shopping hatch engine. Remember that the K-series was originally a Metro engine, it was very light weight, 1.4 litre capacity. It was stretched to 1.8 but the actual block and ancillaries are a *small* package. The car was designed around that.
That's the reason the SR20DET wouldn't be a goer. Also any of the 5-pot engines would be too long.
Basically the Lotus chassis needs a compact inline 4. You also have to choose based on which side the exhaust comes out - if the exhaust goes forwards (looking at the car) then the manifold will be up against the bulkhead and the pipe will have to travel under the engine to get out. For a nasp engine, you can get away with this but with LOTS of heat shielding (it's not just about cooking the driver, it's about safety). It's not sensible to have a sodding great turbo sitting there, given how hot turbos get. Plus all the plumbing - this would require you to shift the engine further back to accommodate the heat shielding and pipes, compromising the weight distribution and handling.
So if you want turbos, you need an engine with the exhaust manifold on the 'back' of the block. Still, packaging all of that whilst retaining good flow and not having to throw away the boot (heat management a problem even then, as a hot turbo too close to the boot could melt the plastic) is a challenge.
The existing engines fulfil these criteria. The VX220 turbo engine worked, and the Audi one does too. There are options, nobody is going to choose a different engine just for the hell of it when existing kits do the job very well.
The only question you ask that is really worth investigating is the rotary engine option - now that *would* be interesting but IIRC all of the Mazda rotaries are longitudinally mounted and getting a gearbox for transverse mounting would be a BIG problem. Mounting it longitudinally in the back of an Elise may be possible but it's a full-on engineering R&D job.
That's the reason the SR20DET wouldn't be a goer. Also any of the 5-pot engines would be too long.
Basically the Lotus chassis needs a compact inline 4. You also have to choose based on which side the exhaust comes out - if the exhaust goes forwards (looking at the car) then the manifold will be up against the bulkhead and the pipe will have to travel under the engine to get out. For a nasp engine, you can get away with this but with LOTS of heat shielding (it's not just about cooking the driver, it's about safety). It's not sensible to have a sodding great turbo sitting there, given how hot turbos get. Plus all the plumbing - this would require you to shift the engine further back to accommodate the heat shielding and pipes, compromising the weight distribution and handling.
So if you want turbos, you need an engine with the exhaust manifold on the 'back' of the block. Still, packaging all of that whilst retaining good flow and not having to throw away the boot (heat management a problem even then, as a hot turbo too close to the boot could melt the plastic) is a challenge.
The existing engines fulfil these criteria. The VX220 turbo engine worked, and the Audi one does too. There are options, nobody is going to choose a different engine just for the hell of it when existing kits do the job very well.
The only question you ask that is really worth investigating is the rotary engine option - now that *would* be interesting but IIRC all of the Mazda rotaries are longitudinally mounted and getting a gearbox for transverse mounting would be a BIG problem. Mounting it longitudinally in the back of an Elise may be possible but it's a full-on engineering R&D job.
Edited by Terror Factor on Thursday 4th February 21:38
The SR20DET makes quite easy a respectable amount of horsepower. The evo and wrx engines are stock already quite impressive. They even sell(sold?) 400 hp evo's stock in the UK ^^
And people do put in smallblock chevy's.
http://www.hennesseyperformance.com/hennesseyperfo...
But yeah, maybe you can't count that as an exige
@Scuffers: Well, it seems that I've already met the forumtroll! Nice to meet you!
FYI, I did use the search("engine" should be a decent keyword), but there was no topic like this.
And people do put in smallblock chevy's.
http://www.hennesseyperformance.com/hennesseyperfo...
But yeah, maybe you can't count that as an exige
@Scuffers: Well, it seems that I've already met the forumtroll! Nice to meet you!
FYI, I did use the search("engine" should be a decent keyword), but there was no topic like this.
Esprit said:
The Evo engine is a truck engine. It's heavy and quite large, would be a squeeze into an Elise.
Rotaries are compact, but heavy (there's a lot of iron in them) compared to a RoverK.
Nissan SR20s again aren't terribly compact but aren't bad weight-wise.
In the end there's nothing stopping you putting one in. There's a VERY quick Exige in South Africa with a Mazda I4 Dohc turbo engine in it (as in it runs 9 second quarter miles I believe)... so non-conventional swaps can be done... it's just a lot of engineering, which is tricky in an Elise as the heat management is tricky, and it's a fine balance so as to not upset the handling.
In the end, people put these Jap turbo engines on a magical pedestal claiming they can make insanely mega horsepower for $0.... it's bulls
t, apart from a few (Nissan RB, Toyota JZ, Mitsubishi 4G) that make respectable horsepower through being giant cast iron boat-anchors that are nice and stiff.
Why don't people chuck smallblock chevrolets in for the same reason?
Rotaries are compact, but heavy (there's a lot of iron in them) compared to a RoverK.
Nissan SR20s again aren't terribly compact but aren't bad weight-wise.
In the end there's nothing stopping you putting one in. There's a VERY quick Exige in South Africa with a Mazda I4 Dohc turbo engine in it (as in it runs 9 second quarter miles I believe)... so non-conventional swaps can be done... it's just a lot of engineering, which is tricky in an Elise as the heat management is tricky, and it's a fine balance so as to not upset the handling.
In the end, people put these Jap turbo engines on a magical pedestal claiming they can make insanely mega horsepower for $0.... it's bulls
t, apart from a few (Nissan RB, Toyota JZ, Mitsubishi 4G) that make respectable horsepower through being giant cast iron boat-anchors that are nice and stiff.Why don't people chuck smallblock chevrolets in for the same reason?
Seriously, why are you guys so arrogant? I'm asking a question, is it that hard to give an ontopic answer? You do realise that a forum was partially made for asking questions, right?
I don't see why my question is that wrong or bad? Anyway, you know what they say: you can't ask stupid questions, you can only give stupid answers
I don't see why my question is that wrong or bad? Anyway, you know what they say: you can't ask stupid questions, you can only give stupid answers
Scuffers said:
Hey smartass, do you see ANY topic that answers my questions? Edited by Terror Factor on Thursday 4th February 22:29
Edited by Terror Factor on Thursday 4th February 22:32
I don't have any experience driving an elise, but I should be the owner of an S1 in the next couple of months.
It isn't that hard to imagine that a high revving, high powered, light engine would be fun in a light car like an Elise, isn't it?
And it would be nice if you wouldn't act so degrading. Giving ontopic answers would be alot better than flaming me, we all might learn something. Some people here managed to give a nice, ontopic answer, so it shouldn't be impossible, right?
EDIT: to give you an idea: the 13B-MSP Renesis engine weighs 122 kg without fluids/tranny. The K20a weighs about 160kg(quick googled numbers, rotary on wiki, vtec on hondaforum) without fluids/tranny.
It isn't that hard to imagine that a high revving, high powered, light engine would be fun in a light car like an Elise, isn't it?
And it would be nice if you wouldn't act so degrading. Giving ontopic answers would be alot better than flaming me, we all might learn something. Some people here managed to give a nice, ontopic answer, so it shouldn't be impossible, right?
EDIT: to give you an idea: the 13B-MSP Renesis engine weighs 122 kg without fluids/tranny. The K20a weighs about 160kg(quick googled numbers, rotary on wiki, vtec on hondaforum) without fluids/tranny.
TIPPER said:
Can I ask what experience you have of driving an Elise?
Given your lack of the knowledge of the car I suspect not much if any, so how the hell can you make a judgement on what an Elise would be like with the Mazda rotary engine.
I'm afriad we prefer informed comment not childish dreamers.
Saxo/Corsa forums might prove more interesting for you
Given your lack of the knowledge of the car I suspect not much if any, so how the hell can you make a judgement on what an Elise would be like with the Mazda rotary engine.
I'm afriad we prefer informed comment not childish dreamers.
Saxo/Corsa forums might prove more interesting for you
Edited by Terror Factor on Thursday 4th February 22:42
You are starting to irritate me.
I ASKED why they didn't do it.
How many years of experience do you have trolling? Why don't you give a shot to the questions I asked? Try to make yourself useful.
I ASKED why they didn't do it.
How many years of experience do you have trolling? Why don't you give a shot to the questions I asked? Try to make yourself useful.
Scuffers said:
so, let's get this right
you don;t even have an Elise, you have never driven one, but you suddenly think you have the answer for engine swaps that the rest of the world who have been driving these things for 14 years have not already thought of/done?
well done, you must be a genius!
you don;t even have an Elise, you have never driven one, but you suddenly think you have the answer for engine swaps that the rest of the world who have been driving these things for 14 years have not already thought of/done?
well done, you must be a genius!
Well yeah, the questions have been answered now.
Still, a rotary elise was mentioned, does anyone know anything about it? Googling only gave me another elise forum where someone asked if it was done.
You people should really work on your mentality, this is by far the most hostile forum I'm on, lol.
Still, a rotary elise was mentioned, does anyone know anything about it? Googling only gave me another elise forum where someone asked if it was done.
You people should really work on your mentality, this is by far the most hostile forum I'm on, lol.
Edited by Terror Factor on Thursday 4th February 23:01
JBanx said:
The evo engine has so much pipe work it would be a nightmare to try and fit. the scooby engine is fairly wide instead of tall so that would need the chassis / subframe cutting up fairly significantly to make it fit as well.
I guess at the end of the day if you have enough time and cash you could probably get anything you want made (which has already been mentioned)
I'd like to see what a Clio 172/182 engine would be like in an elise!
The clio engine would be kinda like the vtec I guess, but less revs and less power, thus a less interesting engine? I guess at the end of the day if you have enough time and cash you could probably get anything you want made (which has already been mentioned)
I'd like to see what a Clio 172/182 engine would be like in an elise!
The Toyota 3S-GTE might be interesting too.
bogie said:
Elise with a Jag 4.2V8 if you want .......
http://www.caral.co.uk/Lotus_111_Series.html
..when youve changed everything other than the chassis tub though, when does it stop being and Elise, and become just a kit car ....and you may has well have just bought an Ultima or such like if you want a 1000Kg kit car with a V8 .....
Nice engineering, but I do agree that V8's change the idea of an Elise. However, I might not be much of an Elise after something like that, but I wonder what laptimes a car like that could do.http://www.caral.co.uk/Lotus_111_Series.html
..when youve changed everything other than the chassis tub though, when does it stop being and Elise, and become just a kit car ....and you may has well have just bought an Ultima or such like if you want a 1000Kg kit car with a V8 .....
The Ultima is one hell of a car too, but taxes and insurrance are near impossible to pay for me, at least for now.
But I keep thinking of a rotary Elise. You have to admit, it should/would be sweet!
Hi Mark,
Your duratec looks nice, I definitely can understand that you're excited! May I ask why you chose for the duratec conversion, and not for, let's say, the K20 conversion?
And AFAIK there is no normal gearbox that can be fitted to a rotary to be used in the elise. I did read about some gearbox they use is some formula racing, where they drive mid/rear engined cars with a wankel. I'll post the link of the forum later, if I can find it again.
On your question "if they could mate it with a honda gearbox(I don't think that's possible, btw), why go for the rotary and not for the vtec?": Well, rotaries are way smoother than any piston engine, and they work VERY well with turbochargers. You can get a lot of power out of a very small engine, that seems to be even lighter than the vtec.
And for subjective reasons: I like the principle of a rotary, it's a very clever design, imo. The sound is also amazing!
Your duratec looks nice, I definitely can understand that you're excited! May I ask why you chose for the duratec conversion, and not for, let's say, the K20 conversion?
And AFAIK there is no normal gearbox that can be fitted to a rotary to be used in the elise. I did read about some gearbox they use is some formula racing, where they drive mid/rear engined cars with a wankel. I'll post the link of the forum later, if I can find it again.
On your question "if they could mate it with a honda gearbox(I don't think that's possible, btw), why go for the rotary and not for the vtec?": Well, rotaries are way smoother than any piston engine, and they work VERY well with turbochargers. You can get a lot of power out of a very small engine, that seems to be even lighter than the vtec.
And for subjective reasons: I like the principle of a rotary, it's a very clever design, imo. The sound is also amazing!
If you checked the search, you noticed that not one topic answered my questions
As for basic research: I didn't find enginesizes nor the exact enginecompartmantspace of the elise, I'M SORRY. Luckily, this forum is full of experts
As for basic research: I didn't find enginesizes nor the exact enginecompartmantspace of the elise, I'M SORRY. Luckily, this forum is full of experts
LivinLaVidaLotus said:
wacattack said:
Why is everyone being so moody on here today
Probably as there was some pretty crap news yesterday, so people not searching and going over topics that have been done to death without doing any basic research first was grating a little.A VTEC is also alot heavier, the rotary is lighter than the vtec. AND a rotary has heaps more potential than a rover k, or a vtec.
@braddo: well, that's a matter of taste
It's a shame that installing one transversely doesn't have an off-the-shelf solution, an Elise with V6 smoothness without the weight penalty, a lot more torque (Peak of 156lbft@5500, at least 140lbft from around 3250 to 8500 rpm) and an even lower CoG would be a nice car. The coarseness of my Elise's engine is the thing I like least about it.That's funny... my Rover K on the scales, without ancillaries or fluids came in at 76kg. The 13bREW in the same state we just fitted to a friend's car was 124kg in the same state. I'd call that significantly heavier.
@braddo: well, that's a matter of taste
Esprit said:
otolith said:
Esprit said:
Rotaries are compact, but heavysimilar in weight (there's a lot of iron in them) compared to a RoverK.
EFA.It's a shame that installing one transversely doesn't have an off-the-shelf solution, an Elise with V6 smoothness without the weight penalty, a lot more torque (Peak of 156lbft@5500, at least 140lbft from around 3250 to 8500 rpm) and an even lower CoG would be a nice car. The coarseness of my Elise's engine is the thing I like least about it.
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