Two more gone - Plymouth & Southampton Harley Davidson
Discussion
EasternBlocGeek said:
I would have agreed 5 yrs ago when the UK's cheapest new car had risen 33% over a couple of years to £8k. Now 5 yrs later it costs £14200. I could buy pretty much any car I want but I wouldn't buy a base Sandero for £14200 as I think it's too much for what it is. A good mate who earns far far more than I do (£200k+) is similarly minded & isn't planning on buying any new or recent car because he doesn't see any value in doing so.
When even big earners baulk at new car prices, that's where I see an opportunity for motorcycle manufacturers to increase sales. Shift ten 125cc bikes/scooters quickly or have one Harley sitting on the sales floor for ages.
The French have a very healthy market for low capacity machines. The UK's is dysfunctional. It's not all down to the weather.
The number of bikes in France is almost exactly the same as in the UK.When even big earners baulk at new car prices, that's where I see an opportunity for motorcycle manufacturers to increase sales. Shift ten 125cc bikes/scooters quickly or have one Harley sitting on the sales floor for ages.
The French have a very healthy market for low capacity machines. The UK's is dysfunctional. It's not all down to the weather.
The reason you don't see £14k of value in a Sandero is probably that like most people, your view of 'value' is shaped by secondhand cars.
If you want to make a business selling cars for less, you'll find it's pretty tough.
It costs £14k, it lasts 100k miles, that's pretty cheap in the long run.
A very high proportion of 10 year old Sanderos are still on the road, £1400 a year in depreciation is shed money, for a car with a long warranty.
On the one hand you whine that bike manufacturers don't sell sensible modest practical bikes, on the other you mock sensible cheap new cars.
It's the curse of the used buyer, having the idiots who buy new shape our choices.
Harley have tried with smaller bikes, AIUI, their last effort involved paying Castigliioni to take Cagiva off their hands?
Harley is what it is, love it or leave it. I've ridden a few, although the only modern one was a Buell.
In retail, brands have a lifecycle, Harley have done well to keep going for over 100 years. Maybe their future is now a very small market share? Maybe there are enough old Harleys out there that we don't need any new ones?
Maybe it's better for them to just stop making bikes than to knock chinky scooters with a Harley badge?
Like Ferrari, they probably make more money flogging hats and T shirts anyway.
EasternBlocGeek said:
The French have a very healthy market for low capacity machines.
That's partly because of the astronomical first year taxes on new cars that is anything more than an eco-box with ultra low emissions.Only the super wealthy buy anything more than cheap cars/bikes in France.
OutInTheShed said:
The number of bikes in France is almost exactly the same as in the UK.
The reason you don't see £14k of value in a Sandero is probably that like most people, your view of 'value' is shaped by secondhand cars.
On the one hand you whine that bike manufacturers don't sell sensible modest practical bikes, on the other you mock sensible cheap new cars.
There's 4M bikes/scooters/mopeds registered on French roads versus 1.3M in the UK (both countries have a similar population) so I stand by my statement that France has a very healthy market compared to the UK's dysfunctional one. Specifically for small capacity bikes & scooters (sub 400cc), France out-numbers us by nearly 7 to 1.The reason you don't see £14k of value in a Sandero is probably that like most people, your view of 'value' is shaped by secondhand cars.
On the one hand you whine that bike manufacturers don't sell sensible modest practical bikes, on the other you mock sensible cheap new cars.
I tend to buy my cars new so my perception of value is based around list prices & whatever discounts might commonly be available. Either way, taking prices of cars from 5, 10 & 15 yrs ago & using the BofE's inflation calculator, even taking inflation into account, your average family cars these days costs 20-50% more. That's not me mocking anything; I just can't see where the cars themselves offer a 20-50% better ownership experience than cars of a few years ago.
Edited by EasternBlocGeek on Wednesday 12th February 22:29
EasternBlocGeek said:
OutInTheShed said:
The number of bikes in France is almost exactly the same as in the UK.
The reason you don't see £14k of value in a Sandero is probably that like most people, your view of 'value' is shaped by secondhand cars.
On the one hand you whine that bike manufacturers don't sell sensible modest practical bikes, on the other you mock sensible cheap new cars.
There's 4M bikes/scooters/mopeds registered on French roads versus 1.3M in the UK (both countries have a similar population) so I stand by my statement that France has a very healthy market compared to the UK's dysfunctional one. Specifically for small capacity bikes & scooters (sub 400cc), France out-numbers us by nearly 7 to 1.The reason you don't see £14k of value in a Sandero is probably that like most people, your view of 'value' is shaped by secondhand cars.
On the one hand you whine that bike manufacturers don't sell sensible modest practical bikes, on the other you mock sensible cheap new cars.
aeropilot said:
EasternBlocGeek said:
OutInTheShed said:
The number of bikes in France is almost exactly the same as in the UK.
The reason you don't see £14k of value in a Sandero is probably that like most people, your view of 'value' is shaped by secondhand cars.
On the one hand you whine that bike manufacturers don't sell sensible modest practical bikes, on the other you mock sensible cheap new cars.
There's 4M bikes/scooters/mopeds registered on French roads versus 1.3M in the UK (both countries have a similar population) so I stand by my statement that France has a very healthy market compared to the UK's dysfunctional one. Specifically for small capacity bikes & scooters (sub 400cc), France out-numbers us by nearly 7 to 1.The reason you don't see £14k of value in a Sandero is probably that like most people, your view of 'value' is shaped by secondhand cars.
On the one hand you whine that bike manufacturers don't sell sensible modest practical bikes, on the other you mock sensible cheap new cars.
Rob 131 Sport said:
Doesn’t sound like a fun place to live. I noticed on a recent trip there that most of the new cars tended to be really basic cheap ones.
Just different priorities Most of Europe with the exception of Germany was a few big cities and pretty much peasant farmers on the vast majority of the area until the European Union
Less money but arguably a better quality of life
Rob 131 Sport said:
aeropilot said:
EasternBlocGeek said:
OutInTheShed said:
The number of bikes in France is almost exactly the same as in the UK.
The reason you don't see £14k of value in a Sandero is probably that like most people, your view of 'value' is shaped by secondhand cars.
On the one hand you whine that bike manufacturers don't sell sensible modest practical bikes, on the other you mock sensible cheap new cars.
There's 4M bikes/scooters/mopeds registered on French roads versus 1.3M in the UK (both countries have a similar population) so I stand by my statement that France has a very healthy market compared to the UK's dysfunctional one. Specifically for small capacity bikes & scooters (sub 400cc), France out-numbers us by nearly 7 to 1.The reason you don't see £14k of value in a Sandero is probably that like most people, your view of 'value' is shaped by secondhand cars.
On the one hand you whine that bike manufacturers don't sell sensible modest practical bikes, on the other you mock sensible cheap new cars.
You've got to be under 172g/km to keep the first year tax below €10k.....!!
OutInTheShed said:
EasternBlocGeek said:
The manufacturers (of all the big brands) have shot themselves in the foot in the UK over the last few decades. They should have had a core focus on simple, economical bikes & scooters and should have targeted commuters fed up with traffic jams & public transport, younger folk & people on a more restricted transport budget.... 'You meet the nicest people on a Honda' type advertising. In the 90s they went all-in on sports bikes - which was fine as there were loads of riders with disposable income who bought them. Then came the noughties & IMO that's where it started to go wrong.
The manufacturers went all-in on the wealthier middle-class Ewan & Charlie wannabes. These customers were cash cows at the time but the majority were never going to stick with biking for longer than it took for 'the next big thing' to come along. By that point the manufacturers were utterly neglecting & losing the less profitable but core market.
Many dealerships have also shot themselves in the foot by being 50 yrs behind on customer service & the quality & competence of their service depts has often been so poor that even a moderately competent DIY'er could do a far better job whilst not paying extortionate rates. Like the manufacturers, dealers focused on the easy sales of bikes & branded clothing & accessories to a certain image conscious, decent disposable income demographic. It was very difficult to get servicing & repairs done to my 'daily driver' bike as dealers preferred the easy money from £250 oil & filter changes from customers who did a couple hundred miles a year. 8 week waits for service slots at any dealer within 100 miles of me was the norm. If that standard of service was replicated in car servicing, that dealership/brand would fail, fast!
Licencing & insurance woes merely added to the decline.
The only way to save the industry in the UK is to promote & sell bikes based around low costs, practicality, convenience & freedom. Sports & adventure type bikes should be the premium/specialist products, not the bread & butter. Get rid of dealers & have half a dozen manufacturer owned service centres spread across the regions e.g. one centre for Scotland located centrally in Stirling. Lobby government to simplify licencing for smaller capacity bikes.... Why can't we have the French licencing system here?
Then again, UK sales these days represent such a small proportion of European/global sales, maybe they're simply not interested & will happily let the UK market wither on the vine. The impression I got from Honda's UK HQ was that they were only interested in getting customers' money here & now & had no vision beyond the end of the financial year.
Without a systemic revision of how they operate, the UK market is, I think, going to continue to decline and Ebikes & Escooters will take over from motorcycles & scooters.
You sound like my Dad banging on in about 1985.The manufacturers went all-in on the wealthier middle-class Ewan & Charlie wannabes. These customers were cash cows at the time but the majority were never going to stick with biking for longer than it took for 'the next big thing' to come along. By that point the manufacturers were utterly neglecting & losing the less profitable but core market.
Many dealerships have also shot themselves in the foot by being 50 yrs behind on customer service & the quality & competence of their service depts has often been so poor that even a moderately competent DIY'er could do a far better job whilst not paying extortionate rates. Like the manufacturers, dealers focused on the easy sales of bikes & branded clothing & accessories to a certain image conscious, decent disposable income demographic. It was very difficult to get servicing & repairs done to my 'daily driver' bike as dealers preferred the easy money from £250 oil & filter changes from customers who did a couple hundred miles a year. 8 week waits for service slots at any dealer within 100 miles of me was the norm. If that standard of service was replicated in car servicing, that dealership/brand would fail, fast!
Licencing & insurance woes merely added to the decline.
The only way to save the industry in the UK is to promote & sell bikes based around low costs, practicality, convenience & freedom. Sports & adventure type bikes should be the premium/specialist products, not the bread & butter. Get rid of dealers & have half a dozen manufacturer owned service centres spread across the regions e.g. one centre for Scotland located centrally in Stirling. Lobby government to simplify licencing for smaller capacity bikes.... Why can't we have the French licencing system here?
Then again, UK sales these days represent such a small proportion of European/global sales, maybe they're simply not interested & will happily let the UK market wither on the vine. The impression I got from Honda's UK HQ was that they were only interested in getting customers' money here & now & had no vision beyond the end of the financial year.
Without a systemic revision of how they operate, the UK market is, I think, going to continue to decline and Ebikes & Escooters will take over from motorcycles & scooters.
The reality is that the big four brands used to offer lots of small bikes, but people stopped buying them.
It's very hard to compete with cheap chinese mopeds.
Maybe the powers that be are quite happy to have less motorbikes on the road? But that's not actually happening, the number of bikes registered is up about 40% since 2000, roughly in line with cars.
People who want easy to service middleweight bikes have some good options. There are lots of used bikes available, bikes often last longer than cars, with bikes over 15/20/25 years old being higher %ages than with cars. If you don't have excessive disposable income, you don't have to either buy new or buy an 'aspirational' brand.
If you ask people why they don't buy a bike, what do they say?
I've heard young people put off by insurance costs, getting wet all the time, risk of getting hurt and simply finding that cars are better value.
The other thing is that the world of UK motorcycling isn't really attractive to young people the way it was 40 years ago.
It used to be attractive people, rock'n'roll, excitement.
Now it's fat old blokes trundling their £20k bike to a cafe on a Sunday morning.
Small bikes used to be the 'gateway drug' to a 1000cc lifestyle, now they are mostly just transport for scrotes.
The world has changed, perhaps more in the UK than elsewhere. You can't get away with the speeds we used to, cheap cars are a lot faster, attitudes to exuberant motoring have changed.
In another section, people were whinging about mourning the end of petrol engines or not, somewhat missing the point that however your vehicle is powered, motoring is much less fun than it used to be.
I'm 52, been biking for 28yrs, just before the Direct Access licence changes came in. It cost me about 200 quid to get my full licence, most of that being an intensive one weekend course in December 1997 which covered my CBT and a test the following Wednesday on a loaner CG125. Job jobbed. Thereafter I could have gone and ridden a Fireblade the next day, if I could afford the insurance.
Nowadays it costs a fortune to get your full licence, and once you have it the cost of insuring a bike is eye-watering. If you don't have a garage (many young people do not) then the risk of theft is off the scale.
Against that backdrop youngsters just cannot be bothered to get on two wheels and I don't blame them. A dreadful shame, as they don't know what they are missing out on.
I look at my 652 Facebook friends (who are largely real people, I have met at some point in my life) and maybe 20 of them are bikers at best. All of them are over 40. The bike industry has a massive demographic problem that it is doing very little to fix, in my opinion.
rev-erend said:
Looks like the FTR is being discontinued:https://www.motorcycle.com/bikes/news/indian-ftr-d...
OutInTheShed said:
The other thing is that the world of UK motorcycling isn't really attractive to young people the way it was 40 years ago.
It used to be attractive people, rock'n'roll, excitement.
Now it's fat old blokes trundling their £20k bike to a cafe on a Sunday morning.
...the point that however your vehicle is powered, motoring is much less fun than it used to be.
I have teenage daughters, apparently their male friends have jokingly said "We're only friends with you because you have a cool Dad" referring to my bikes and sportscars so all is not lostIt used to be attractive people, rock'n'roll, excitement.
Now it's fat old blokes trundling their £20k bike to a cafe on a Sunday morning.
...the point that however your vehicle is powered, motoring is much less fun than it used to be.
However on talking to one of their 16-year-old friends who is eager to get a moped - purely for transport reasons - having run the figures, an electric bike makes much more sense.
Admittedly, probably an illegal one but he has no assets to worry about, lives in a crappy area and can't wheel a moped indoors
I agree motoring is far less fun which is why I got into road motorcycles because even getting up early, I couldn't get a decent run in the car without getting constantly held up by dawdlers
OutInTheShed said:
You sound like my Dad banging on in about 1985.
The reality is that the big four brands used to offer lots of small bikes, but people stopped buying them.
It's very hard to compete with cheap chinese mopeds.
Maybe the powers that be are quite happy to have less motorbikes on the road? But that's not actually happening, the number of bikes registered is up about 40% since 2000, roughly in line with cars.
People who want easy to service middleweight bikes have some good options. There are lots of used bikes available, bikes often last longer than cars, with bikes over 15/20/25 years old being higher %ages than with cars. If you don't have excessive disposable income, you don't have to either buy new or buy an 'aspirational' brand.
If you ask people why they don't buy a bike, what do they say?
I've heard young people put off by insurance costs, getting wet all the time, risk of getting hurt and simply finding that cars are better value.
The other thing is that the world of UK motorcycling isn't really attractive to young people the way it was 40 years ago.
It used to be attractive people, rock'n'roll, excitement.
Now it's fat old blokes trundling their £20k bike to a cafe on a Sunday morning.
Small bikes used to be the 'gateway drug' to a 1000cc lifestyle, now they are mostly just transport for scrotes.
The world has changed, perhaps more in the UK than elsewhere. You can't get away with the speeds we used to, cheap cars are a lot faster, attitudes to exuberant motoring have changed.
In another section, people were whinging about mourning the end of petrol engines or not, somewhat missing the point that however your vehicle is powered, motoring is much less fun than it used to be.
This is my view, the roads just arent fun in the uk anymore.The reality is that the big four brands used to offer lots of small bikes, but people stopped buying them.
It's very hard to compete with cheap chinese mopeds.
Maybe the powers that be are quite happy to have less motorbikes on the road? But that's not actually happening, the number of bikes registered is up about 40% since 2000, roughly in line with cars.
People who want easy to service middleweight bikes have some good options. There are lots of used bikes available, bikes often last longer than cars, with bikes over 15/20/25 years old being higher %ages than with cars. If you don't have excessive disposable income, you don't have to either buy new or buy an 'aspirational' brand.
If you ask people why they don't buy a bike, what do they say?
I've heard young people put off by insurance costs, getting wet all the time, risk of getting hurt and simply finding that cars are better value.
The other thing is that the world of UK motorcycling isn't really attractive to young people the way it was 40 years ago.
It used to be attractive people, rock'n'roll, excitement.
Now it's fat old blokes trundling their £20k bike to a cafe on a Sunday morning.
Small bikes used to be the 'gateway drug' to a 1000cc lifestyle, now they are mostly just transport for scrotes.
The world has changed, perhaps more in the UK than elsewhere. You can't get away with the speeds we used to, cheap cars are a lot faster, attitudes to exuberant motoring have changed.
In another section, people were whinging about mourning the end of petrol engines or not, somewhat missing the point that however your vehicle is powered, motoring is much less fun than it used to be.
I was a biker from my teens, used to do abit of racing, sold my last bike 20 years ago and dont want another.
I have friends who still ride, but not many, when i was younger almost everyone i knew had a bike, they were cheap and fun.
I wouldnt ride a bike on the uk roads today, to much traffic, and half the drivers have no clue.
And thats before you get to the state of the roads.
typeo said:
rev-erend said:
Looks like the FTR is being discontinued:https://www.motorcycle.com/bikes/news/indian-ftr-d...
Shooter McGavin said:
Against that backdrop youngsters just cannot be bothered to get on two wheels and I don't blame them. A dreadful shame, as they don't know what they are missing out on.
richhead said:
the roads just arent fun in the uk anymore.
Yes & no. I dislike the kind of roads & riding I used to enjoy because of the volume of traffic now & the poor standard of driving. I sold 2 of my 3 bikes & packed it in a few years ago.Then, with restricted workplace parking, I bought a scooter & commuting 40 miles a day on that is the highlight of my day. I read in a French scooter magazine recently, the story of one rider who expressed similar sentiments. He described his commute as being like a real life game of Tetris / Block Blaster - constantly looking for & utilising gaps to get to his destination as quickly & efficiently as possible. To my mind that's got to be the pull for younger people..... Not ride-outs to the middle of knowhere for a coffee & being bored to tears by the tall biking tales of 50+ 'gammons' (a word I hate but it has its place). The pull for teenagers has to be about cost effectiveness, freedom & the fun of beating the traffic (Tetris style) whilst the crusties obediently wait in line like sheep. For those teenagers that can safely store a bike, insurance & other costs are pretty reasonable when compared to cars. Get them into 125cc scooters & bikes & it's inevitable that some will progress on to larger capacity bikes.
The biking environment has changed over time. Some people decide it's no longer for them whilst others will adapt & find different ways to enjoy it.
KTMsm said:
Less money but arguably a better quality of life
This. My Dad lived in France for the last 30 years of his life, it's so different down there. People don't care about having less money or material things, it's just so laid back. The sun and lots of great wine also help. He was retired anyway, but used to ride to Croatia for a holiday. On this, which I need to start working on when it warms up a bit.
EasternBlocGeek said:
The pull for teenagers has to be about cost effectiveness, freedom & the fun of beating the traffic (Tetris style) whilst the crusties obediently wait in line like sheep.
But I don't think it is in reality, not in the UK, or not in the SE at least.There's a stigma to scooters and 125's associated with scrotes and pizza delivery, so my good mates son told me (maybe a London thing though?) and he actually did do a direct access and got his licence 18 months ago, aged 23, but has now sold his ratty commute bike, as he was using it less and less for that purpose.
He doubts he'll bother with another bike now.
Its a far away world to my teen days in late 70's when it seemed every 16 year male wanted a Fizzy and be Barry Sheene
EasternBlocGeek said:
The pull for teenagers has to be about cost effectiveness, freedom & the fun of beating the traffic (Tetris style) whilst the crusties obediently wait in line like sheep. For those teenagers that can safely store a bike, insurance & other costs are pretty reasonable when compared to cars.
Surely any teenage who can safely store a bike is someone who has parents rich enough to have a garage or live somewhere really nice, and they can afford a car... cars being much better for picking up girls in?I am fascinated by Harley... I think they're so cool, but having done my CBT I decided I couldn't trust myself to take the next step. I have a Harley dealership just up the road from me, and if the amount of Harleys you see on the roads near my house on weekends is anything to go by then Harley are utterly thriving. Likewise when you drive by the dealership and there are massive crowds at weekends. Of course, having 50 Harley riders turn up en masse does not mean you sell 50 brand new Harleys!
Fred Smith said:
Surely any teenage who can safely store a bike is someone who has parents rich enough to have a garage or live somewhere really nice, and they can afford a car...
My kids can afford a car - I'm willing to give them oneWhat they can't afford is the insurance, at £8.50 a day they may as well get an uber !
aeropilot said:
But I don't think it is in reality, not in the UK, or not in the SE at least.
There's a stigma to scooters and 125's associated with scrotes and pizza delivery
True, but to be fair the manufacturers' marketing depts haven't promoted 125cc bikes/scooters to anyone for as long as I can remember (& I'm 51). The only marketing I recall is some very poor slides hidden away on Honda's website extoling the fuel savings, & one old video on YouTube comparing commuting times. I've seen far more/better marketing done by Vespa in the US.... a country not exactly renowned for scooter ownership.There's a stigma to scooters and 125's associated with scrotes and pizza delivery
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