How much can you milk from the social?

[otolith]

J4CKO said:

I think sometimes its easy to be skeptical about autism and think its made up in a lot of cases, maybe it is but I had an eye opener last year that made me realise that it can be absolutely horrendous, or that parent and his child I didn't begrudge them a penny, in fact they deserved all they could get and more, I was truly humbled and felt bad about how I had perceived it in the past.

I cant imagine medical professionals just handing out an autism diagnosis because the parents fancy a few quid in benefits.

My dad used to work for social services and was involved in facilities providing respite care for those children whose parents really needed a break. Very difficult kids, many of them profoundly disabled by autism and very hard to handle. Particularly when you're talking about teenagers who are as big and strong as their parents.

[theboss]

A Winner Is You said:

J4CKO said:

I think sometimes its easy to be skeptical about autism and think its made up in a lot of cases, maybe it is but I had an eye opener last year that made me realise that it can be absolutely horrendous, or that parent and his child I didn't begrudge them a penny, in fact they deserved all they could get and more, I was truly humbled and felt bad about how I had perceived it in the past.

I cant imagine medical professionals just handing out an autism diagnosis because the parents fancy a few quid in benefits.

The difficulty with autism is how wide ranging it can be, everything from being barely noticeable to requiring round the clock care.

This. It's very difficult to define or assess the 'true' level of support required, and this does inevitably give rise to conflicting interests. If your somewhat autistic child presents moderate additional care needs with occasional 'bad days' and you are filling out a form that determines whether you might get £200 or £1000 a month (to keep it simple) based on the severity of the needs, with very arbitrary eligibility thresholds, how are most people going to respond? They'll describe worst case and ham it up slightly.

I've been through something similar myself with PIP following spinal cord injury. Two assessments a few years apart, same disabilities and same prognosis but two 'interviewers'. First one succeeded and second one failed. The only difference perhaps was that in the second case I had adapted to what was a 'new normal' and probably seemed in a more optimistic state of mind. Same problems but two assessment outcomes. I can't be bothered to appeal but most people would, I think.

Edited by theboss on Thursday 27th August 14:50

[Zoon]

I know a family who were initially dragging in £2.5k a month in disability and carers allowance for once autistic child.
As an aside they got free private eduction for their disabled son, and also managed to get their non-disabled daughter at the same school FOC on the basis they couldn't get them both to different schools on time.

They also successfully challenged the NHS for medical negligence and won a substantial multimillion pound payout which has purchased a very nice country pad and £150k of new cars.

Oh and did I mention that neither parent works.

[Zetec-S]

otolith said:

J4CKO said:

I think sometimes its easy to be skeptical about autism and think its made up in a lot of cases, maybe it is but I had an eye opener last year that made me realise that it can be absolutely horrendous, or that parent and his child I didn't begrudge them a penny, in fact they deserved all they could get and more, I was truly humbled and felt bad about how I had perceived it in the past.

I cant imagine medical professionals just handing out an autism diagnosis because the parents fancy a few quid in benefits.

My dad used to work for social services and was involved in facilities providing respite care for those children whose parents really needed a break. Very difficult kids, many of them profoundly disabled by autism and very hard to handle. Particularly when you're talking about teenagers who are as big and strong as their parents.

Agreed. My cousin is autistic with learning difficulties. When he was young I think it was easy for people who didn't know him to think he was just very badly behaved, it was only as he got a bit older/teenager that it became obvious. My uncle worked full time in a well paid job for years, but I don't begrudge him any extra support he may or may not have been entitled to. Imagine trying to calm down a 6ft+ teenager who doesn't know their own strength or understand what is going on around him. And then having to do that on a daily basis.

On the other "end" of the scale my 11 year old niece has recently been diagnosed. We've always suspected things weren't entirely "right" with her, she;s a nice kid and generally well behaved, but lacking in social skills. The formal diagnosis should mean she is eligible for more learning support in secondary school which will hopefully give her a decent shot at life when she's older. I guess in the past these kids were just labelled as thick or badly behaved so left to fail. No idea whether my SiL will be eligible for extra benefits (as a single mum working full time she gets some support, not much), but even if she does I can't see it being enough for her to jet off to the Maldives every summer.

[98elise]

otolith said:

Don't you get NI credits on some benefits?

Yes.

On the flip side if you're in a minimum wage part time job you don't get NI credits so you can easily end up with a very reduced pension. Live on benefits your entire life and you will be entitled to a full pension.

Edited by 98elise on Thursday 27th August 14:59

[Jcwjosh]

You can live a very nice life milking the social..

My partners sisters seem to anyway... Nice new flat all the mod cons, bigger than my bought house, all paid for by the tax payer. Let partner who earns 1500-2000 a month move in, child benefits, child tax credits then get a cash in hand job you are laughing brand new trainers and clothes for all the family, takeaways galore etc.

You now also have real scum of the earth types faking severe mental health issues and claiming disability benefit they can manage to drive nice cars everywhere smoke weed all day t....get a couple of those under your roof and then add someone who can claim carers allowance and you are again living better than a lot of hardworking tax payers.

It makes me sick..

[Nurburgsingh]

Jcwjosh said:

Y....get a couple of those under your roof and then add someone who can claim carers allowance and you are again living better than a lot of hardworking tax payers.

It makes me sick..

We had lots and lots of family member duo's claiming carers allowance for each other, and I mean LOTS and LOTS.

[coppernorks]

I believe there exists a vast monetary ocean of unclaimed benefits.

so these people not diddling anyone, they are claiming
their rightful moolah, maybe the only fools are the rest of
us who get up of a morning and work 180 hours a month for £2.5K

[robinessex]

The brightest kid in my class at school carried on in education at 16, ended up with 2 degrees, one in electrical engineering, then as a teacher, in 1972. A very short while after, he had a nervous breakdown and stopped working. Never worked again. Lived with his parents, obviously now deceased, in a 2 bedroom end terrace council house, which if private, is worth £400,000. Never married, always lived alone. Always had a car, 4 years ago bought a brand new Fiesta, which according to the current MOT, hasn't done a 1000 miles yet! The council put double yellow lines outside the house, so he privately paid to have the front paved to park on. Smokes like a trooper, manages to keep the garden immaculate, so quite fit and able.

[J4CKO]

Zetec-S said:

otolith said:

J4CKO said:

I think sometimes its easy to be skeptical about autism and think its made up in a lot of cases, maybe it is but I had an eye opener last year that made me realise that it can be absolutely horrendous, or that parent and his child I didn't begrudge them a penny, in fact they deserved all they could get and more, I was truly humbled and felt bad about how I had perceived it in the past.

I cant imagine medical professionals just handing out an autism diagnosis because the parents fancy a few quid in benefits.

My dad used to work for social services and was involved in facilities providing respite care for those children whose parents really needed a break. Very difficult kids, many of them profoundly disabled by autism and very hard to handle. Particularly when you're talking about teenagers who are as big and strong as their parents.

Agreed. My cousin is autistic with learning difficulties. When he was young I think it was easy for people who didn't know him to think he was just very badly behaved, it was only as he got a bit older/teenager that it became obvious. My uncle worked full time in a well paid job for years, but I don't begrudge him any extra support he may or may not have been entitled to. Imagine trying to calm down a 6ft+ teenager who doesn't know their own strength or understand what is going on around him. And then having to do that on a daily basis.

On the other "end" of the scale my 11 year old niece has recently been diagnosed. We've always suspected things weren't entirely "right" with her, she;s a nice kid and generally well behaved, but lacking in social skills. The formal diagnosis should mean she is eligible for more learning support in secondary school which will hopefully give her a decent shot at life when she's older. I guess in the past these kids were just labelled as thick or badly behaved so left to fail. No idea whether my SiL will be eligible for extra benefits (as a single mum working full time she gets some support, not much), but even if she does I can't see it being enough for her to jet off to the Maldives every summer.

Back in the eighties there was Autism but it had to be fairly obvious and severe, anyone else got called a "Joey" or something a bit more offensive, so for every "I tell you our Jaydens got ADHD, we are off to Florida" there are also a lot of folk getting and relying on justified assistance.

I think looking a kid up and down and saying they seem fine isnt actually living with them either, might be fine when out but like a Tasmanian devil thats got at the blue Smarties and washed them down with Red Bull at home.

[CharlieH89]

I was going to write a post about people I know about that have never worked in their life, have free houses etc, have had multiple kids at a young age who’ve done the same but fk it, I’ve got myself into a decent career, go on holidays, drive, chosen when I want children, lived my life before 30 how I wanted and not addicted to alchohol/ drugs.

There are disabled people out there who really need the help and there are people who cheat the system.
As long as you enjoy your life it’s not worth thinking about.

[Sticks.]

Groat said:

Brads67 said:

Hahaha awesome. I've aspired to sociopathy for ages.

Is it a benefit or an earning ?

It's a benefit - or 'freebie' if you prefer. You don't 'earn' it. You become 'entitled' to it.

I was surprised to find PiP isn't means tested.

And it's not just the vehicle that Motability provides. Free insurance, road tax, any and every required repair, MoT, even punctures are thrown in as well. Personally I think we should also get our fuel and carwashing too, but alas not the case.

PIP/DLA can be used to fund what is essentially a car lease. It's not means tested as it's paid to reflect the additional transport costs of the significantly disabled, as part of the govt's strategy to ensure social inclusion and possibly stay in or obtain work. Child Benefit is a similar benefit in that it reflects a govt objective.

It also included free Dartford Crossing toll, and you can apply for exemption from London Congestion Charge AFAIK. But not free hospital parking, which might make more sense.

When I started work in 1980 long term sick or disabled people were interviewed when applying for benefits and visited at home every 6 months. The interpersonal contact has been reduced over the years to save money with predictable results. Then to try and fox the bill they get in a private contractor which makes a hash of it costing us all more money.

[towser44]

CharlieH89 said:

I was going to write a post about people I know about that have never worked in their life, have free houses etc, have had multiple kids at a young age who’ve done the same but fk it, I’ve got myself into a decent career, go on holidays, drive, chosen when I want children, lived my life before 30 how I wanted and not addicted to alchohol/ drugs.

There are disabled people out there who really need the help and there are people who cheat the system.
As long as you enjoy your life it’s not worth thinking about.

I'd love to know how anyone manages to actually get benefits. My Mrs had a terrible illness a few years ago and we gave up trying to get anything (legitimately I might add, we weren't looking for something for nothing, we had a genuine need) in the end because the hoops you had to jump through were ridiculous so we ended up struggling by on one income until she recovered and was able to get back to work (which was well before she should have done). We've always worked since leaving college and since that time we've learned that there is no help out there and you've got to look after yourself. I wouldn't even bother trying to get any benefits now, even if I was made redundant, the whole system is a joke IMO.

[Psycho Warren]

theboss said:

The maintenance I pay was termed “global” in court, in that it’s intended to meet the combined needs of her household.

That way it’s conveniently deemed “child support” when she’s applying for benefits but “mine” when she’s booking another childless holiday without causing her the stress of any internal moral dilemna.

Overall I got off pretty lightly. We rented (thank god) so I avoided the huge losses many face in these situations. But she is setup for the foreseeable future with a secure non-working income she could only better with a significant professional salary.

It will of course be interesting to see what happens when the money taps do eventually turn off in 85 months time.

I don't understand why the judges in these kind of cases do not take a reasonable eye on these things. Clearly spousal maintance and 48k a year in benefits, shes well minted even if shes in london. So how the hell can a judge think she needs all that extra money?

Sure it would make sense if the maintenance came off the benefits figure as it makes sense to make YOU pay rather than the state. But to think she needs that kind of figure is insane!!!

I presume when the kids move out, the gravy train stops for her and she will have to get a job like everyone else?

[Pieman68]

towser44 said:

I'd love to know how anyone manages to actually get benefits. My Mrs had a terrible illness a few years ago and we gave up trying to get anything (legitimately I might add, we weren't looking for something for nothing, we had a genuine need) in the end because the hoops you had to jump through were ridiculous so we ended up struggling by on one income until she recovered and was able to get back to work (which was well before she should have done). We've always worked since leaving college and since that time we've learned that there is no help out there and you've got to look after yourself. I wouldn't even bother trying to get any benefits now, even if I was made redundant, the whole system is a joke IMO.

In my experience the system is awful for those who have worked and don't know how to play the system

As an example my Dad. Left school at 14 and worked all his life up to a point. Sometimes working more than one job when we were young - used to come home and then Mum went out and worked an evening shift. They bought their house before they got married in 1970 (3 bed semi) and lived there until 2000 before moving.

Dad got ill around his early 50s. He was told he had anaemia. It then transpired he had crumbling discs in his neck and he had to have 2 removed and replaced with a titanium cage - this was around 3 years later. After the op they ran further tests on his bloods and discovered hairy cell leukaemia. He had chemo and got back to work. A year later he was made redundant at 57

He got £10 a week to help cover costs to get to job interviews. No help with the mortgage and nothing else as Mum worked. He then had to have another 2 discs replaced and could struggle to walk. He was turned down for DLA, and then lost his appeal when he went to the appeal (took over an hour to walk to the train station around a mile from home and could carry a bag - with his medication in that they told him to take)

They nearly had to sell their home - only managed as Granddad passed away and left them money that allowed them to pay their mortgage off

3 years later he was diagnosed Type 2 diabetic. Boom. Straight onto DLA

He's now 72 and we have to take a wheelchair if we go anywhere as he can hardly walk. Never been able to play with his grandkids due to his lack of mobility

The system is an absolute disgrace for anybody who's had the temerity to work before becoming unemployed

Then I see my ex working 16 hours a week whilst the taxpayer and I have funded her life. My daughter left college last week and is going to work so my maintenance is stopping as will her C Tax discount, Housing benefit, Child benefit etc. Hopefully she will go and get a proper job rather than taxing my daughter a load in "board" to prop her up

[Fittster]

otolith said:

Fittster said:

What do we think costs the state more, people playing the benefits system or people playing the tax system?

When you say that, you are of course talking about small businesses, cash in hand work, discount for cash with no invoice? Since small businesses are by far the largest part of the tax gap.

On the other hand, maybe we don't have to choose between addressing the two unrelated issues?

The both reduce revenue to the exchequer, it would make sense on focus political will and civil service energy on the one that has the greatest impact.

[theboss]

Psycho Warren said:

I don't understand why the judges in these kind of cases do not take a reasonable eye on these things. Clearly spousal maintance and 48k a year in benefits, shes well minted even if shes in london. So how the hell can a judge think she needs all that extra money?

Sure it would make sense if the maintenance came off the benefits figure as it makes sense to make YOU pay rather than the state. But to think she needs that kind of figure is insane!!!

I presume when the kids move out, the gravy train stops for her and she will have to get a job like everyone else?

Her benefits will taper off as the kids grow up. Our autistic daughter is about to turn 16 after which some benefits get paid to her directly, so no surprises that when she asked for her passport recently it wasn’t to take her on holiday but rather open her a bank account ensuring it was registered to her address and that she was in possession of the card and pin.

Maintenance is locked in until our youngest leaves secondary level school/college which worst case would be 20.

I agree maintenance should be factored in as essentially by pooling the two sources of income she is funded to the tune of gross £65-70k salary and as we still share care of the kids her role is part time at best (she has them mainly during the school week and our daughter with needs gets transported by taxi).

She even got them registered for free school meals because she’s on income support and again any disability benefit or child support doesn’t get taken into account. If you read the eligibility criteria this is intended for very low income households.

And of course this makes me “look bad” amongst the chattering playground bunch because poor mum scraping by on benefits and kids on free school meals with dad living a good life and collecting kids in a fast car etc etc.

The court order was by consent before it went further. There was a risk any judge could have handed me worse and with mounting legal costs I had sound tactical reasons for getting the order agreed, stamped and sealed as quickly as possible. Taking it to final hearing could have been mutual assured destruction financially.

Edited by theboss on Thursday 27th August 17:54

[Sticks.]

Fittster said:

The both reduce revenue to the exchequer, it would make sense on focus political will and civil service energy on the one that has the greatest impact.

But one will fill column inches and win votes.

[Downward]

enpointe said:

CoolHands said:

It’s the free motability cars that get me

Motability cars are NOT free

Well technically if you are given something it’s free.

[Brads67]

Groat said:

It's a benefit - or 'freebie' if you prefer. You don't 'earn' it. You become 'entitled' to it.

I was surprised to find PiP isn't means tested.

And it's not just the vehicle that Motability provides. Free insurance, road tax, any and every required repair, MoT, even punctures are thrown in as well. Personally I think we should also get our fuel and carwashing too, but alas not the case.

O, and a bit of bad news for you. Afaik 'sociopathy' is not a condition which gives you benefit eligibility, although with the right advisory backup you could certainly try

Ey up.

I know what it is really, and think that well deserved recipients are exactly what my taxes are for.

I suspected that idiot boy had a chip on his shoulder and was fishing for me to say all the folk getting it are freeloaders.

It is a freebie though, just one that most folk getting , well deserve.