RE: Half-a-million pound Prodrive P25 for sale

[TGCOTF-dewey]

Lefty said:

bloody thumbsnap logo hides the moneyshot

£529k per car plus VAT

Gearbox and diffs will be double that I'd guess.

I was at the Norwegian rally champs a couple of weeks back in Lillehammer. Chap I was chatting to who was leading the fwd class had £25k sat just in the sequential box.

[Lefty]

Could well be. I know a Quaife 20g is under £10k and I was trying not to over egg it

Edited by Lefty on Friday 20th October 15:19

[asci.white]

So much hate for this, just don't get it..

Anyone questioning what Prodrive can do should see the in-car video from Isle of Man TT (or the P2 car)..

Understanding rally tech and the built up knowledge of running winning teams doesn't come cheap.

Edited by asci.white on Friday 20th October 15:52

[trails]

520TORQUES said:

Do you mean sleeved up to the 2.5 bore size? Then a stock 2.0 crank?

Steve supplied most of my bits, i was the first to put a 2.1 HC TS spec together with a twin scroll that works at this power level. It's become a common option now.

That's correct, it was originally built for Mikee with v6 heads. Steve did all the machining and Mo built it for me.

What's your username on 22b?

[jakeb]

This is what we were promised - it's a shame they went off piste

[Newbie2023]

Would any of the knowledgeable bods who have contributed to this thread (no; not you Big Rob) be able to offer any opinion on whether or not the item below is representative of the going rate for the product being provided in the listing?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/304942091890

Appears to come out at £37k for a fully finished shell including the cage.

[big_rob_sydney]

trails said:

520TORQUES said:

trails said:

big_rob_sydney said:

In case you missed it, Andy Forrest built an ENTIRE car for £10k. The "goalposts" here, are about half a million quid wide. If there are a few bits missing, with such a wide margin to play with, do you really think someone is going to struggle to supply what's missing? Or do you think finishing an engine build will cost you that much?

Andy's RA was an evolution over a decent period of time...he ran a flat four for many years in the same car before moving to the H6...so the £10k figure is misleading at best.

Andy went through more than that in turbo's and ECU costs. He was well sponsored and used the car as a business tool, so would have received free or discounted parts. The nissan GTR box was worth a chunk on its own.

Costs, even when being supplied parts at discount or even free, soon add up. Had he charged it as a customer build it would have been eye watering with the hours required being charged for.

That's why most cars like Andy's are self build and business tools, even customer cars are done at cost when linked to a business as part of the marketing tools for their work.

It's a totally different proposition to a car like the P25 or even a customer WRC car, built to make a profit.

I was being kind, 22b.bbs member by chance?

Rob is, so not sure why he is picking this hill to die on...

1. Andy's car did indeed evolve over time. I'm not saying that it cost £10k at the end of its evolution. There was a point where he went racing, and yes, the race car did cost him £10k at that point in time. It was well over 500bhp at that point. Those of you who know, know.

2. While I appreciate the Prodrive are amortising the development costs over a small number of cars, and therefore it appears that the costs to get to this point seemingly cannot, under any circumstances be compared (this is the bit where I roll my eyes), by the exact same token, when you look at suppliers like Scoobyclinic, RCMS, or whoever else you'd like to consider, they have built countless engines, and have developed their own expertise over hundreds of cars. And for some reason, some of you either disregard that, or fail to even acknowledge that other suppliers have the ability to provide a product that is also well developed, with their own costs amortised of many years / projects themselves.

3. Yes, I said you could build a similar car for well under the Prodrive price. I don't doubt that for a second. And yes, you have between what *I* said, and the ridiculous price Prodrive are charging to do that. If you want to try and poke semantic holes through any of that, go for it. It's not a "hill to die on", it's just my observation (and, it seems, many others) that the Prodrive price is ridiculous, and that you can get a similar car for a hell of a lot less than £600k+. Yes, I put that figure closer to £100k. If you absolutely MUST spend more, knock yourself out. I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.

[Newbie2023]

big_rob_sydney said:

1. Andy's car did indeed evolve over time. I'm not saying that it cost £10k at the end of its evolution. There was a point where he went racing, and yes, the race car did cost him £10k at that point in time. It was well over 500bhp at that point. Those of you who know, know.

Those who know have already dismissed this as any form of meaningful evidence against as a partly subsidised self build which began life in the 2000's is not a direct comparison.

big_rob_sydney said:

2. While I appreciate the Prodrive are amortising the development costs over a small number of cars, and therefore it appears that the costs to get to this point seemingly cannot, under any circumstances be compared (this is the bit where I roll my eyes), by the exact same token, when you look at suppliers like Scoobyclinic, RCMS, or whoever else you'd like to consider, they have built countless engines, and have developed their own expertise over hundreds of cars. And for some reason, some of you either disregard that, or fail to even acknowledge that other suppliers have the ability to provide a product that is also well developed, with their own costs amortised of many years / projects themselves.

I don't see that anybody has been either flately dismissive or disrespectful of any of the other manufacturers or suppliers; they have merely pointed out that not all are equal and Prodrive are undoubtedly right towards the top of the tree when it comes to both perceived, and actual, experience/expertise in this specific field.

big_rob_sydney said:

3. Yes, I said you could build a similar car for well under the Prodrive price. I don't doubt that for a second. And yes, you have between what *I* said, and the ridiculous price Prodrive are charging to do that. If you want to try and poke semantic holes through any of that, go for it. It's not a "hill to die on", it's just my observation (and, it seems, many others) that the Prodrive price is ridiculous, and that you can get a similar car for a hell of a lot less than £600k+. Yes, I put that figure closer to £100k. If you absolutely MUST spend more, knock yourself out. I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.

For the avoidance of any doubt as you still appear to be slightly confused as to what you actually said;

big_rob_sydney said:

I can absolutely tell you that a very similar car to this could be built for under £100k in time and materials.

There are no semantics involved; you just have absolutely not proven this statement to be correct so far.

[RB Will]

Newbie2023 said:

Would any of the knowledgeable bods who have contributed to this thread (no; not you Big Rob) be able to offer any opinion on whether or not the item below is representative of the going rate for the product being provided in the listing?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/304942091890

Appears to come out at £37k for a fully finished shell including the cage.

That is Paul’s car. I don’t know if this particular thing is great value but his job is building and running rally cars so assuming he knows the value. He has supplied bits to me previously and is a decent chap who didn’t take the piss with pricing.
This one was one of his personal cars that he was building into a full WRC rep, he had hand built the wide arches etc.

[Lefty]

Newbie2023 said:

Would any of the knowledgeable bods who have contributed to this thread (no; not you Big Rob) be able to offer any opinion on whether or not the item below is representative of the going rate for the product being provided in the listing?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/304942091890

Appears to come out at £37k for a fully finished shell including the cage.

The panels on the p25 are all carbon I think.

[Newbie2023]

Lefty said:

The panels on the p25 are all carbon I think.

Yep, I was under the impression that they are too. The Ebay listing was more about ascertaining what sort of cost would be involved in reproducing something similar as oppose to being a direct like for like comparison.

[Newbie2023]

RB Will said:

That is Paul’s car. I don’t know if this particular thing is great value but his job is building and running rally cars so assuming he knows the value. He has supplied bits to me previously and is a decent chap who didn’t take the piss with pricing.
This one was one of his personal cars that he was building into a full WRC rep, he had hand built the wide arches etc.

Thank you.

[Lefty]

Newbie2023 said:

big_rob_sydney said:

I can absolutely tell you that a very similar car to this could be built for under £100k in time and materials.

There are no semantics involved; you just have absolutely not proven this statement to be correct so far.

In fairness, yes, you could build a fast, nice Subaru 2 door GC8 for under 100k.

Nice Imported sti £25k
Forged engine build & turbo/ECU £20k
New suspension £3k
New brakes £2k
Sequential box £15k
ABW wide arch kit £5k
Paint £5k
Wheels and tyres £2k
Etc etc etc

And it would be nice and it would be fast.

But it’s not the same thing, not remotely, it’s a modified old car vs a professionally re-engineered, virtually all-new, 90% bespoke car with top-spec everything.

You could buy an old 911 for £60k and throw bolt on bits at it to spend £100k. Thats not the same as a £600k Singer either.

[Newbie2023]

Lefty said:

In fairness, yes, you could build a fast, nice Subaru 2 door GC8 for under 100k.

Nice Imported sti £25k
Forged engine build & turbo/ECU £20k
New suspension £3k
New brakes £2k
Sequential box £15k
ABW wide arch kit £5k
Paint £5k
Wheels and tyres £2k
Etc etc etc

And it would be nice and it would be fast.

But it’s not the same thing, not remotely, it’s a modified old car vs a professionally re-engineered, virtually all-new, 90% bespoke car with top-spec everything.

You could buy an old 911 for £60k and throw bolt on bits at it to spend £100k. Thats not the same as a £600k Singer either.

Yep, I don't think that anybody should ever doubt that.

I don't think that the Prodrive association should be underestimated either. Realistically how many companies could hope to pull this off at the price point? That is a genuine question too as I am just a casual observer really but I would hazard a guess that they would be the most recognisable name in the game and it's a reputation that has been hard earned.

The Singer analogy is a good one as I am sure that if you had two virtually identical builds with the only difference being that one had the Singer name behind it most would place the greater value on the Singer. That's just the cashe that some companies have and others aspire to.

[georgeyboy12345]

Honestly this looks terrible. Like something out of Max Power

[kiwiIM]

Nice Sub but ridiculous money.

[Bezmatixxx]

Funkstar De Luxe said:

Half a million bucks for a Subaru with Chinese lights.

NOPE.

[ChocolateFrog]

asci.white said:

So much hate for this, just don't get it..

Anyone questioning what Prodrive can do should see the in-car video from Isle of Man TT (or the P2 car)..

Understanding rally tech and the built up knowledge of running winning teams doesn't come cheap.

Edited by asci.white on Friday 20th October 15:52

Because it looks a bit st and they're asking over half a million quid would be my guess.

[P1H]

pquinn said:

I don't think this thing is particularly worthwhile buying as a customer vs other options but I can see why it cost so much per unit. It's possible to spend that on a low volume project without even blinking.

This is exactly the point.

I’m very surprised people would consider this value in such a diverse market, regardless of the high cost of bespoke production or the incredible performance. As others have pointed out, the ‘value’ proposition is a bit different if you already own multiple super cars.

Out of interest, does anyone know how build slots / deposits work in this business? Imagine for a moment the dealership loses confidence in the value of their two slots and do the maths on pulling out. Presumably they lose a very hefty deposit, but would you also expect staged payments throughout the build or a one-off final payment? I assume the latter. I don’t think this will happen if the reports they are all sold are accurate, I’m just interested to learn how this works with relatively small low turnover manufacturers.

[s m]

RB Will said:

I was only thinking earlier in the week while looking at my P1 what ever came of this P25. Much hoo ha about it when announced but seems to have died a death.
I was expecting the usual reviewers to be all over it but all there is on Youtube is a not great video from Evo and a rubbish video with some woman I've never heard of from a company I don't know having a gentle bimble around a test track in it on a Subaru jolly day. Even if all of them are sold I would still expect more attention from the journos, surprised Prodrive dont want it showing off.

I think it’s in Autocar in their ‘Annual Handling Day/Drivers Car’ article in the next couple of weeks