red diesel abuse

[ninja-lewis]

martin84 said:

Then could somebody explain why PH isnt going batst mental over Vodafone evading £6billion in tax - which is almost double what the Government estimate was paid out in fraudulent benefit claims last year.

I could have some respect for such views and for HMRC if they treated everybody equally. This website is keen to kick the benefit claimant who pockets an extra £100 but have practically nothing to say about the big business who steals £6billion from all of us.

Maybe the tired uber-right-wing-mouth-frothing line of 'my taxes go to pay for scummy benefit thieves' should be changed to 'my taxes go to pay for scummy big business' tax evaders!!'

Just a thought.

Perhaps the typical PHer, with their two directorships, appreciates that Private Eye got the very wrong end of the stick, namely that the figure in question was never £6 billion, that HMRC came very close to losing before the deal was signed and that the subsequently EU ripped up the unlawful rules HMRC were wrongly trying to enforce.

[martin84]

jonstable said:

+1
Big difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion. Something the local 'occupy' morons can't seem to comprehend.

Pathetic post. Theres mere semantics and not a valid argument. Theres not any difference at all and the 'Occupy Morons' as you call them comprehend it perfectly well and thats a major part of the protest. They are protesting against the fact thats its possible to legally avoid paying this tax. Thats part of the message, that the Governments tax laws are too complex and easy to get round that it makes it legal for Vodafone to con the British public out of £6billion. Putting a different name on it doesnt change the fact that its not being paid and it should be, and as a result of that the taxpayer is worse off.

richtea78 said:

Have Vodafone evaded tax? They avoided it using legal means which might not be morally correct but it is legal and I doubt their shareholders are complaining

Am i supposed to care about their shareholders?

I think theres serious questions as to whether Vodafones practices are even technically 'legal.' The fact is the big companies have the clout to get a good deal and evade billions in tax which the ordinary man in the street has no choice but to pay. That isnt right.

I think its disgusting that this website sticks up for such pathetic practices. Slating benefit claimants or the builder who takes £100 cash in hand but applauding tax evading billionaires is quite disgraceful because its the tax evading billionaires who are the biggest threat to our economy and the treasury. You should all be ashamed of yourselves. Im literally having chest pains reading such nonsense on here.

I know you all like to fellate big business and greedy shareholders but bringing out the 'evasion is different to avoidance' strawman is getting stupid now. If they made a 'legal way' of murdering somebody it wouldnt change the fact the end result would be a dead person. They're both the same thing, only one is legal and one isnt. Thats a semantic, a technicality. One which needs changing very quickly.

Edited by martin84 on Monday 16th January 00:11

[martin84]

ninja-lewis said:

Perhaps the typical PHer, with their two directorships, appreciates that Private Eye got the very wrong end of the stick, namely that the figure in question was never £6 billion, that HMRC came very close to losing before the deal was signed and that the subsequently EU ripped up the unlawful rules HMRC were wrongly trying to enforce.

Next you'll be telling me banks didnt need a £500billion cheque from the taxpayer and that Philip Green is a standup member of the community who's never evaded any tax in his life

All i want to see is some fairness and usually when the EU enforces something on the UK you lot go ballistic, but because in this case it suits greedy fat rich people then its suddenly ok?

[richtea78]

martin84 said:

I think its disgusting that this website sticks up for such pathetic practices. Slating benefit claimants or the builder who takes £100 cash in hand but applauding tax evading billionaires is quite disgraceful because its the tax evading billionaires who are the biggest threat to our economy and the treasury. You should all be ashamed of yourselves. Im literally having chest pains reading such nonsense on here.

This will probably give you a heart attack but if it was up to me Id give tax breaks to big business and billionaires to encourage them into the country. My reasoning is that entrepreneurs are the people who drive the economy and having them making more money means they will make the economy even more. I could bore you with the economics behind it but I am fast thinking you are some sort of lefty who either doesn't understand the arguments or ignores them anyway.

Alternatively could you give me any evidence of how tax evading billionaires are the biggest threat to our economy? I am fairly sure that the benefit scroungers are far more of a drain on the society than say someone like Richard Branson. I'm fairly sure he doesn't sit around all day waiting for handouts while watching Jeremy Kyle

[martin84]

richtea78 said:

This will probably give you a heart attack but if it was up to me Id give tax breaks to big business and billionaires to encourage them into the country. My reasoning is that entrepreneurs are the people who drive the economy and having them making more money means they will make the economy even more. I could bore you with the economics behind it but I am fast thinking you are some sort of lefty who either doesn't understand the arguments or ignores them anyway.

Yawn. Criticise big business even slightly and apparently you're Arthur Scargill on here. Really lads, you're just embarassing yourselves. We need to get rid of this myth that the UK is a bad place to do business. Plenty of big business operates here and it doesnt look like their shareholders go poor - quite the opposite in fact. Im also really am sick of 'if you dont agree with me its because you're uneducated' which is how PH reacts to anybody who disagrees with them.

richtea said:

Alternatively could you give me any evidence of how tax evading billionaires are the biggest threat to our economy? I am fairly sure that the benefit scroungers are far more of a drain on the society than say someone like Richard Branson. I'm fairly sure he doesn't sit around all day waiting for handouts while watching Jeremy Kyle

You can be 'fairly sure' of whatever you like, it doesnt mean you're right. If you want to use 'benefit scroungers' as your comparison then lets do it. As i pointed out, the Government estimates that £3.5billion was fraudulently claimed in benefits last year which is about 0.5% of the Governments total expendature and just over half what Vodafone alone owe the taxpayer. The Government also estimates that around £25billion a year is lost through 'tax avoidance' which is about 7 times whats fraudulently claimed in benefits. They're a massive threat because that £25billion has to be made up somewhere and i doubt its Philip Green and Richard Branson who are going to feel the strain. Its going to be the 14k a year civil servant instead (or a few hundred thousand) who get the axe to pay for it. Top executive pay is now so out of control its similar to the Victorian era with a massive gulf between top and bottom and even a moron could work out thats not positive or progressive.

Those on benefit who are claiming genuinely are struggling due to a lack of jobs (hardly a newsflash i grant you) and why is there a lack of jobs? Its certainly not because big business doesnt have the money to expand, grow or employ is it? You'd probably say our tax laws restrict growth and job giving opportunities but i'd say if you relax the laws then they'll evade or 'avoid' even more. Give an inch, take a yard etc so we couldnt risk such a strategy. If you gave them tax breaks they'd just take that extra money and pay themselves even more with it. It wouldnt benefit anybody lower down the payscale, or the treasury or anybody else but themselves. Just look at how the rich sit there whining about the 50p tax bracket as if these people have any right to whine about anything, get over yourselves for gods sake.

Its popular amongst Tory voters to kick the jobless at every opportunity while happily putting more on the dole que by axing jobs. Even Cameron's slowly realising he cant solve the entire deficit just from kicking unemployed people in the face.

[Rovinghawk]

martin84 said:

the Government estimates that £3.5billion was fraudulently claimed in benefits last year which is about 0.5% of the Governments total expendature and just over half what Vodafone alone owe the taxpayer.

I think you've missed the point that they DON'T owe the taxpayer (or even the government).

martin84 said:

The Government also estimates that around £25billion a year is lost through 'tax avoidance'

This isn't money that the government (by its own admission) has any claim on, so they can hardly 'lose' it.

martin84 said:

that £25billion has to be made up somewhere

There ISN'T any 25 million to make up as it was never the government's in the first place.

martin84 said:

Top executive pay is now so out of control its similar to the Victorian era with a massive gulf between top and bottom and even a moron could work out thats not positive or progressive.

The politics of envy, comrade?

martin84 said:

If you gave them tax breaks they'd just take that extra money and pay themselves even more with it. It wouldnt benefit anybody lower down the payscale, or the treasury or anybody else but themselves. Just look at how the rich sit there whining about the 50p tax bracket as if these people have any right to whine about anything, get over yourselves for gods sake.

This might give some perspective:

doc.cat-v.org/economics/bar_stool_economics

[quote]Its popular amongst Tory voters to kick the jobless at every opportunity while happily putting more on the dole que by axing jobs. Even Cameron's slowly realising he cant solve the entire deficit just from kicking unemployed people in the face.

I thought this was about red diesel rather than political rants, btw?

RH

[martin84]

Rovinghawk said:

I think you've missed the point that they DON'T owe the taxpayer (or even the government).

Semantics.

Rovinghawk said:

There ISN'T any 25 million to make up as it was never the government's in the first place.

Another irrelevent technicality.

Rovinghawk said:

The politics of envy, comrade?

No, just makes a mockery of us supposedly being 'all in this together.' People being made redundant left, right and centre, Government cutting back which only affects those with low or no income yet the useless pointless rich fk of a FTSE company pays himself an extra £1million a year and on top of that they do everything they can to avoid paying a bit of tax on it. Unbelievable. The taxpayer bails out the bankers to the tune of £500billion and now the taxpayer suffers while the banker rakes in his bonus. I dont see how thats part of a productive society. On the good side though it gives the public every right to throw eggs at the banker, which is fun for a few days or so. Gets old after that.

[Rovinghawk]

martin84 said:

Semantics.
Another irrelevent technicality.

They don't suit you therefore they don't count?

martin84 said:

People being made redundant left, right and centre

How is this relevant to tax avoidance or red diesel?

[quote] the useless pointless rich fk of a FTSE company pays himself an extra £1million a year

As I understand it, that's being curtailed. I also understand that it's between him & the shareholders- it's none of your or my business.

martin84 said:

and on top of that they do everything they can to avoid paying a bit of tax on it.

May I ask how much tax you volunteer to pay if you don't have to?

martin84 said:

On the good side though it gives the public every right to throw eggs at the banker, which is fun for a few days or so.

We don't need to make a fool of you, do we?

RH

[martin84]

Rovinghawk said:

As I understand it, that's being curtailed. I also understand that it's between him & the shareholders- it's none of your or my business.

Its very much our business when the banks they're connected to were bailed out by us. Its also in the public interest when much of the public sector is having a pay freeze but rich people are paying themselves extra wonga, it never looks good.

Rovinghawk said:

May I ask how much tax you volunteer to pay if you don't have to?

Theres a difference between volunteering and going out of your way to avoid. You can see that, right?

Maybe i just come at this from a different angle. I know if i had that sort of money i'd have no interest in putting myself out to 'legally avoid' tax. It wouldnt matter. Salaries of that level are just mere numbers and it wouldnt make any difference to me if i paid the tax or not. I'd happily pay the tax and still dance around in the street. I just struggle to relate to the mindset of somebody with millions of pounds who thinks they need more.

On the subject of red diesel - which you seem hugely keen to bring the thread back to - im not surprised people use it. The mere fact theres a need for a rebated fuel is proof that the fuel is too expensive in the first place. I believe its more prevalent in Northern Ireland, perhaps its more easily accessible there i dont know. Like anything else its down to rates of compliance, you can apply that to everything from tax laws to speed limits. Law and order only works because the majority of people are compliant and law abiding, if they werent then it wouldnt be possible to enforce. I think the issue of illegal fuel goes beyond red diesel, Panorama showed last year how theres a growing huge black market for white diesel and its not just career criminals and general scum who take advantage; its now the ordinary man/woman in the street and business people and that is very scary.

[CaptainSlow]

martin84 said:

Yawn. Criticise big business even slightly and apparently you're Arthur Scargill on here. Really lads, you're just embarassing yourselves.

Somebody is, and it isn't them.

[DrMoriarty]

martin84 said:

Rovinghawk said:

I think you've missed the point that they DON'T owe the taxpayer (or even the government).

Semantics.

Rovinghawk said:

There ISN'T any 25 million to make up as it was never the government's in the first place.

Another irrelevent technicality.

Rovinghawk said:

The politics of envy, comrade?

No, just makes a mockery of us supposedly being 'all in this together.' People being made redundant left, right and centre, Government cutting back which only affects those with low or no income yet the useless pointless rich fk of a FTSE company pays himself an extra £1million a year and on top of that they do everything they can to avoid paying a bit of tax on it. Unbelievable. The taxpayer bails out the bankers to the tune of £500billion and now the taxpayer suffers while the banker rakes in his bonus. I dont see how thats part of a productive society. On the good side though it gives the public every right to throw eggs at the banker, which is fun for a few days or so. Gets old after that.

+1

[martin84]

CaptainSlow said:

martin84 said:

Yawn. Criticise big business even slightly and apparently you're Arthur Scargill on here. Really lads, you're just embarassing yourselves.

Somebody is, and it isn't them.

So you dont think its a bit pathetic that you get called 'comrade' and compared to the likes of Scargill and Kinnock if you dont 100% abide by the arch capitalists-Margaret Thatcher handbook?

Its almost as though PH believes theres no in between.

[richtea78]

martin84 said:

So you dont think its a bit pathetic that you get called 'comrade' and compared to the likes of Scargill and Kinnock if you dont 100% abide by the arch capitalists-Margaret Thatcher handbook?

Its almost as though PH believes theres no in between.

Sounds like a Lib Dem to me! Get him!!!!!

However in all seriousness you appear to be condoning an illegal act because an act which you consider to be wrong isn't illegal. If the UK Government tightened the tax loop holes up then companies would have to pay the tax. They dont so companies and individuals will avoid paying tax if they can. No one likes to pay tax. I very much doubt that you would voluntarily pay tax if you could avoid it.

In my experience I have never met anyone who likes paying tax. Its all to do with how far you are willing to go to get out of paying it. I have no issue with anyone avoiding it. In fact I would be out of a job if people stopped avoiding it. I think evading it such as abusing red diesel is wrong however.

[The Wookie]

martin84 said:

Semantics.

Not really, it's the law.

[kieranjholland]

It's fairly easy to get near me but until red petrol is invented I'm none the better off... agree with the post below though:

Bacon Is Proof said:

You've got all your details on your profile and have just shopped your brother on a website that is known to be watched by the authorities.

Smooth move...

mmmm... Bacon

[DrMoriarty]

kieranjholland said:

It's fairly easy to get near me but until red petrol is invented I'm none the better off... agree with the post below though:

Bacon Is Proof said:

You've got all your details on your profile and have just shopped your brother on a website that is known to be watched by the authorities.

Smooth move...

mmmm... Bacon

These shop a tax evader sites HMRC reporting pages are total bullst. I know of at least 6 people that have been reported for tax offences and guess what ? Still trading and laughing all the way to the bank. There is a gypsy settlement not far from where my parents stay and you see the red diesel container at the rear of the camp ! You actually see them filling up and off they pop to landscape some fkers garden. The law is a ass and the authorities in charge only wast to catch and persecute easy targets. They cat be bothered to mount a investigation if it means time and money. they just go after the easy target. this is all IMHO ! So counts for st really

Edited by DrMoriarty on Tuesday 17th January 09:37

[kieranjholland]

DrMoriarty said:

kieranjholland said:

It's fairly easy to get near me but until red petrol is invented I'm none the better off... agree with the post below though:

Bacon Is Proof said:

You've got all your details on your profile and have just shopped your brother on a website that is known to be watched by the authorities.

Smooth move...

mmmm... Bacon

these shop a tax evader and HMRC are all bullst I know of 6 people who have been reported and fk all has been done, still trading and still not paying tax . waste of time

In that case, bring on red petrol

[martin84]

richtea78 said:

However in all seriousness you appear to be condoning an illegal act because an act which you consider to be wrong isn't illegal.

Where did i condone using red diesel? If you actually read my post you'll see i said im not surprised people use it which im not. With diesel at 145.9 do you expect me to sit here and feign surprise that a few chancers will try their luck with illegal fuel? If you read further you'll see i also said The mere fact theres a need for a rebated fuel is proof that the fuel is too expensive in the first place Which i think is fair, you could apply that logic to the 43p a litre rebate for Buses. The mere fact they need it proves its too expensive.

So please point out where i 'appear' to be condoning the use of red diesel please.

richtea78 said:

No one likes to pay tax. I very much doubt that you would voluntarily pay tax if you could avoid it.

Ok i'll try to explain this again. There's a big difference between volunteering to pay more and going out of your way to avoid paying. The 'you dont volunteer to pay extra' argument is a total strawman. In most cases, this 'avoided' tax wouldve been paid if somebody hadnt actively 'moved things around' to avoid it. Im saying if i had that sort of money then i wouldnt bother going out of my way to 'avoid' the tax. Do you see now or do i need to go slower?

richtea78 said:

In my experience I have never met anyone who likes paying tax. Its all to do with how far you are willing to go to get out of paying it. I have no issue with anyone avoiding it. In fact I would be out of a job if people stopped avoiding it. I think evading it such as abusing red diesel is wrong however.

I didnt say it wasnt wrong but i do think its difficult to compare the two situations. A millionaire 'legally' avoiding tax is different to someone who feels using red diesel is a risk worth taking. I cant imagine most offenders do it for fun (although the OP's mate sounds a bit knobbish) but rather because of the cost. Ask yourself how close you'd have to be to the bottom of the barrel to see red diesel as a risk worth taking. It all goes back to compliance rates. The more expensive the fuel gets - the lower the compliance rate. If the enforcement, policing and prosecution of illegal fuel users is outweighing the 'lost' duty than i feel thats a sign that the price has reached a point where the pendulum of compliance has swung too far in the wrong direction.

[The Wookie]

martin84 said:

Ok i'll try to explain this again. There's a big difference between volunteering to pay more and going out of your way to avoid paying. The 'you dont volunteer to pay extra' argument is a total strawman. In most cases, this 'avoided' tax wouldve been paid if somebody hadnt actively 'moved things around' to avoid it. Im saying if i had that sort of money then i wouldnt bother going out of my way to 'avoid' the tax. Do you see now or do i need to go slower?

And you're accusing others of indulging in semantic arguments?

[jonstable]

martin84 said:

Theres mere semantics and not a valid argument. Theres not any difference at all and the 'Occupy Morons' as you call them comprehend it perfectly well and thats a major part of the protest. They are protesting against the fact thats its possible to legally avoid paying this tax. Thats part of the message, that the Governments tax laws are too complex and easy to get round that it makes it legal for Vodafone to con the British public out of £6billion. Putting a different name on it doesnt change the fact that its not being paid and it should be, and as a result of that the taxpayer is worse off.

http://www.thisisexeter.co.uk/Cathedral-attempt-illegal-protest-camp/story-14437296-detail/story.html

Abdulla Saad, a spokesman for Occupy Exeter, yesterday said the solution was "impractical" and would reduce the momentum of the protest.

He admitted the group had no clear objective, but sought to emulate Indian independence leader Ghandi, who urged activists to "be the change".

"There are no concrete aims, but we want people to come up with them rather than have them imposed from the top down," he added.


Occupy are Morons, as I said. I have tried conversing with them on several occasions only to be shouted down every time.
If what Vodafone are doing is legal, then by my understanding it isn't a 'con' as you call it. Making money is what business is all about whether hippies like it or not.