I hate families!
Discussion
MrBig said:
This is probably the most sensible post in this entire thread.
For me, I wanted to have children. Some people don't. I totally get that, I really do. Nothing winds me up more than hearing other parents 'bullying' people without children into starting a family. Everyone has different ideas, dreams and priorities and should be allowed to live their own lives as they see fit....
Cheers, and I agree, nothing wound me up more than when someone would say ‘when are you two having kids’ to the wife and I. Why assume we even want them, even if we did? Conversely I’d never ask that question to anyone.For me, I wanted to have children. Some people don't. I totally get that, I really do. Nothing winds me up more than hearing other parents 'bullying' people without children into starting a family. Everyone has different ideas, dreams and priorities and should be allowed to live their own lives as they see fit....
To add a bit of context, my wife went through quite bad post-natal depression due to our son’s inability to feed when he was born. Christ it was a tough first year for all three of us. Obviously we didn’t plan or predict it, and at the time I won’t lie, I absolutely had the ‘what have I done’ thought more than once.
Some might be reading this and asking, why go through that?? Thankfully my wife recovered, bloody hell did we come out of it as a stronger unit, and I can’t help but think would the bond exist had we not gone through such trying times. I’m absolutely of the opinion, the most rewarding paths are rarely the easiest.
I can’t see the point saying trying to justify why or why not to have kids though, some things are inexplicable in life. Some might think it’s the worst mistake you can make, whilst others it’s all they can think about (most will sit between these two extremes). But whatever you choose to do, crack on and don’t rub it in other peoples faces, because there will always be positives and negatives on both sides.
Apols for the rambling post.
Edited by juggsy on Thursday 10th May 20:41
rossub said:
zubzob said:
The UK childfree taxpayer does contribute some tax to raising children. Education, free childcare credits etc.
Exactly - higher rate tax + high band council tax = lots of my earnings go towards raising and educating children that I have none of.As for the notion that your taxes are paying to educate today's kids, that's rather flawed logic. With the exception of the few who are privately educated, we all had our education paid for by the taxpayer, so it makes more sense to view your taxes now as paying that back retrospectively.
An old Jewish joke.
Two old Jewish ladies bumped into eachother in the street. They hadn't met for donkey's years and had plenty to catch up about. Sadie asked Hettie about her life. She said she had four children, all grown up, happily married, and she had twelve grandchildren and one more on the way. And what about Sadie?
"Oh, we never had any children."
"No children? What do you do for aggravation?"
Two old Jewish ladies bumped into eachother in the street. They hadn't met for donkey's years and had plenty to catch up about. Sadie asked Hettie about her life. She said she had four children, all grown up, happily married, and she had twelve grandchildren and one more on the way. And what about Sadie?
"Oh, we never had any children."
"No children? What do you do for aggravation?"
bloomen said:
zubzob said:
But even in Denmark, with all their great child support, birth rates are still falling. Whats all that about? Denmark are running sex ads to try and get people to bonk!
Cling film is feminising us. And the Danes have the best spunk in Europe too. rossub said:
Yes I’m aware of that. The point being made is that childless taxpayers do contribute to bringing up children.
The point being ignored is those children will, on the whole, pay substantially more back into the tax system, than what was paid to support them for a few years in childhood.Childless tax payer moaning about supporting children, is no different to a tax payer with no elderly relatives moaning about supporting pensions & NHS care.
BTW, being a dad is the best thing to ever happen to me. Ruinously expensive, exhausting and so frustrating at times, but so much more often that not, they can be more entertaining and rewarding than anything I'd experienced before.
Not just the landmark moments. Every day, seeing them learn, laugh, friends, fights, achievements, failures. Everything shaping them as little people as you try your best to guide them through it. Honestly can't beat it.
zubzob said:
I don’t think anyone so far has moaned about paying tax.
I was only pointing out that those countries which collect more taxes related to children, tend to have happier parents on average.
And making a secondary point that the amount of support you have access too, be that state, family or self funded, has a big impact on parental satisfaction.
You saying it is expensive suggests you do have a decent level of support. Great.
Rossub was overtly saying exactly that, complaining that they were paying tax for children of which they have none of. But ignoring that these children will be paying the tax that will support them in their latter years when they are not paying tax. And as someone else mentioned, who do you think paid for your education?I was only pointing out that those countries which collect more taxes related to children, tend to have happier parents on average.
And making a secondary point that the amount of support you have access too, be that state, family or self funded, has a big impact on parental satisfaction.
You saying it is expensive suggests you do have a decent level of support. Great.
Its a losing argument straight off the bat anyway - what about higher earning families who contribute more to the country than childless people do? Should they get preference on public services? If they paid x5 the amount of tax which covers their child and some? Do we divide up the whole country at an individual level and only supply services based on their tax payments?
People have kids, some dont, personally have no problem with that. Going out for beers tonight with a mate who doesn't have children and he will ask about my Son I am sure, I will ask about things in his life - neither has any animosity towards the other!
zubzob said:
I think that was more of a defensive reaction to the various (some direct and some indirect) suggestions that childfree contribute little or nothing to society compared to parents.
I'm not sure why this keeps being mentioned. I can't see anyone above implying anything of the sort. I've never experienced anyone even suggesting this at all. Strange.
zubzob said:
coldel said:
Rossub was overtly saying exactly that, complaining that they were paying tax for children of which they have none of. But ignoring that these children will be paying the tax that will support them in their latter years when they are not paying tax. And as someone else mentioned, who do you think paid for your education?
Its a losing argument straight off the bat anyway - what about higher earning families who contribute more to the country than childless people do? Should they get preference on public services? If they paid x5 the amount of tax which covers their child and some? Do we divide up the whole country at an individual level and only supply services based on their tax payments?
People have kids, some dont, personally have no problem with that. Going out for beers tonight with a mate who doesn't have children and he will ask about my Son I am sure, I will ask about things in his life - neither has any animosity towards the other!
I think that was more of a defensive reaction to the various (some direct and some indirect) suggestions that childfree contribute little or nothing to society compared to parents. Its a losing argument straight off the bat anyway - what about higher earning families who contribute more to the country than childless people do? Should they get preference on public services? If they paid x5 the amount of tax which covers their child and some? Do we divide up the whole country at an individual level and only supply services based on their tax payments?
People have kids, some dont, personally have no problem with that. Going out for beers tonight with a mate who doesn't have children and he will ask about my Son I am sure, I will ask about things in his life - neither has any animosity towards the other!
zubzob said:
This was all an over literal overreaction to what was probably a quickly composed sentence by Kermit.
"those childless middle-aged people now are going to fully expect to be catered to in later life by the children that middle-aged parents are currently paying to raise, even though they won't have contributed to the costs of raising them."
kermit probably meant contributed AS MUCH to the costs of raising them.
The responses were more along the lines of protest that the childfree tax burden is not zero at the national level. Rather than complaining they shouldn’t pay tax at all.
No, I actually did mean that childless adults have contributed nothing to the cost of raising the next generation, but I only have an issue with it when any such childless adults try to persuade themselves and others that they're somehow being selfless by not having children but still paying taxes!"those childless middle-aged people now are going to fully expect to be catered to in later life by the children that middle-aged parents are currently paying to raise, even though they won't have contributed to the costs of raising them."
kermit probably meant contributed AS MUCH to the costs of raising them.
The responses were more along the lines of protest that the childfree tax burden is not zero at the national level. Rather than complaining they shouldn’t pay tax at all.
OK, there will always be a fortunately small minority who will never pay tax for whatever reason, others who will unfortunately place a far higher than average burden on the NHS, and more who will contribute towards pension provision then sadly not live to receive their own, but fundamentally, the following can be said to be true:
1. We all had parents.
2. We were all educated at taxpayer expense (yes, OK, not including private schooling).
3. We will all pay tax.
4. We will all use the NHS.
5. We will all claim a pension.
Add up everything over the course of your lifetime, and you might be a net contributor or a net beneficiary, but it makes no sense for anyone to think of "their" taxes as paying for other people's children's education, other people's pensions or anything else.
The only sensible way of looking at it is that your tax pays for what you get, with some of it (your education and childhood healthcare) being provided before you pay the tax, and some of it (your pension and retirement healthcare) being provided after you've paid for it.
The specific costs of raising children I was referring to were those of feeding them, clothing them, housing them and everything else that goes in to creating well-rounded members of the next generation. All of this is necessary to produce the people that all currently middle-aged people will need to support them in later life, but only those who choose to become parents are contributing towards that cost.
The vast majority of the time, this doesn't bother me in the slightest, as the emotional returns I get on money spent on my kids vastly outstrips the value of anything else I could do with that money, but when, as frequently tends to happen on these threads on PH, someone childless comes along and suggests that they shouldn't be paying to educate other people's kids, it does rather do my head in!
Me and the Mrs don’t have any kids and have instead focused on career / house etc so far, however we’re still young so not ruling it out. Kids are noisy, annoying, and expensive, but I would imagine very rewarding seeing growing up, so I can see why people would sacrifice a lot for their children.
foxbody-87 said:
Me and the Mrs don’t have any kids and have instead focused on career / house etc so far, however we’re still young so not ruling it out. Kids are noisy, annoying, and expensive, but I would imagine very rewarding seeing growing up, so I can see why people would sacrifice a lot for their children.
basically you're counting down the days until they bugger off and you can get your life back. zubzob said:
A couple of random questions, if you feel like it....
1. I'm curious why you omit housing and child benefit from your list, do taxes not also contribute on a per child basis, to housing costs, clothes, food, childcare etc for single mothers etc? I get your point, just find it odd you don't mention these, as they seem the most relevant to you point about specific costs of raising kids.
2. You seem pretty clear the childfree contribution to cost of raising the next generation is exactly zero. This seems like a suspiciously precise number. Surely if anything, according to you, it would be some negative number? Do you think childfree in general do more harm than good?
Fair point. Housing and child benefit are things which I know nothing about, to be honest!1. I'm curious why you omit housing and child benefit from your list, do taxes not also contribute on a per child basis, to housing costs, clothes, food, childcare etc for single mothers etc? I get your point, just find it odd you don't mention these, as they seem the most relevant to you point about specific costs of raising kids.
2. You seem pretty clear the childfree contribution to cost of raising the next generation is exactly zero. This seems like a suspiciously precise number. Surely if anything, according to you, it would be some negative number? Do you think childfree in general do more harm than good?
I would assume that higher rate taxpayers, whether with children or not, are contributing towards housing benefit for the lower paid, again whether childless or not? I don't know what the balance would be though.
zubzob said:
3. How do you define parent? It seems very binary. Is there a cut off point? What about foster parents, or people who donate their life savings to child charities in their will? What about parents who give kids up for adoption.
I would define a parent as someone raising a child, whether by birth or through fostering/adoption.Childless people who donate their life savings to children's charities? Hardly a significant category, I would've thought!
Cotty said:
Kermit power said:
5. We will all claim a pension.
Not sure about that one. Think I will have checked out before I get to claim it.In my lifetime alone - still under 50 years - life expectancy has increased by 10 years to over 80, but if you strip out deaths due to accident/illness in younger life, we're probably looking at an average age of what, 83 or more for people dying of old age?
Even with the recent increases in pension age, that still leaves the large majority of us claiming a pension for many years more than was originally planned.
Kermit power said:
That's one statistic that's really hard to find out - what is the average age of death for people who die in old age?
In my lifetime alone - still under 50 years - life expectancy has increased by 10 years to over 80, but if you strip out deaths due to accident/illness in younger life, we're probably looking at an average age of what, 83 or more for people dying of old age?
Even with the recent increases in pension age, that still leaves the large majority of us claiming a pension for many years more than was originally planned.
My dad's funeral was last week, he was 72.In my lifetime alone - still under 50 years - life expectancy has increased by 10 years to over 80, but if you strip out deaths due to accident/illness in younger life, we're probably looking at an average age of what, 83 or more for people dying of old age?
Even with the recent increases in pension age, that still leaves the large majority of us claiming a pension for many years more than was originally planned.
keirik said:
Am I? Personally I think I am a very happy man.
Unlike most parents I see.
Of course when you have children you automatically become a sage about the ways of life - at least in your own mind.
Actually, it’s the opposite. I actually stopped being the most selfish asshole on the planet now I have a daughter. She’s taught me a lot Unlike most parents I see.
Of course when you have children you automatically become a sage about the ways of life - at least in your own mind.
Cotty said:
Kermit power said:
5. We will all claim a pension.
Not sure about that one. Think I will have checked out before I get to claim it.Save for yourself or work until you're dead.
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