Koenigsegg Agera R - how fast?

[Streetrod]

Tallbut Buxomly said:

Streetrod said:

You are right the Agera is an evolution but it’s a big one. The Agera, has a completely new engine and gearbox, new suspension including the tri damper rear end, new body work (it's even wider than the CCX) and a new interior and electronics package.

The Zonda has not changed that much in eleven years of production, which I surpose shows that it was basically right from day one

You could equally argue that the K-segg is an evolution of a concept each version a new car with improvements whereas the Zonda is a stagnant model hence it being around for 11yrs and having numerous "run out" versions.

Both have pros and cons. I personally love the Zondas look and sound however it did start getting on my tits the way they kept releasing a "new" run out version every few months and then another etc.

With K-segg they did multiple faster versions and have evolved faster than Pagani. The Huayra is only just being launched the Agera has already been launched.

Some of your points have merit but here’s the thing. The Zonda has only really had two special factory special editions, the Cinque's and the Tricolore. All the other cars like the HH and the Uno etc were commissioned by individual customers and were no more than Zonda F's with addition parts nicked from the Cinque.

The Zonda has developed over the years with changes in bodywork, especially when the F and Cinque were introduced, as well as increases in power etc.

But the facts are that over nearly the same period the Zonda has far outsold the Koenigsegg and has increased in value as much as the Egg has decreased. Add the fact that the Egg has been available in all markets whereas the Zonda has not (notably the USA) does seem to indicate that the market thinks it’s a better product

[astroarcadia]

Great reading. Great knowledge Streetrod.

[GALLARDOGUY]

I'd take an 'egg over a pagani simply for the door mechanism alone. Pure theatre!

[GingerWizard]

Put it this way if i was in the world of mad max, I'm, taking a modified CCXR. End of. Its that crazy mental with the potential to explode at various points at any time. But on its day, when its feeling in the mood, a modified version world see everyone but Heman (Adam) off. I mean feck it, run it through texas on a super long road, get it up to top speed on a slightly down hill section and throw in 250bhp of direct injection NOS, you might die but then you might hammer past 300mph and live. That thought engorges me.


The only other car that does the same thing for me which is essentially pointless is the Zonda F.

Dribble.

[BelfastBoy]

Streetrod said:

Ahh.. One of my fave subjects. Belfastboy and I have discussed this at length. But here are a few more observations and I think they relate directly to how the Pagani and the Koenigsegg are perceived.

The Egg emerged from the mind of a very clever but spotty 22 year old kid who wanted to build his own super car. The Zonda was designed and built by a guy whose history includes designing and building the first all carbon fibre Lamborghini, who then went on to set up Modena Design who then consulted to many super car manufacturers on the use of carbon fibre and composite materials. In effect Pagani have massive creditability in the market.

Christian was never an engineer, just a very bright guy with a dream.

Let’s now look at the cars. Koenigsegg do not build their own bodies, they are built in England, they only manufacture the smaller carbon parts in house.

Pagani build all they own carbon bodies and parts.

Engines, Koenigsegg, used to use a Ford racing block and built their engines on top of that, Pagani as we all known use custom built AMG units.

Quality. I'm afraid some of the early Eggs were not that well put together and that reputation has stuck but does not apply to their latest cars. The Pagani's have been great from day one when it comes to quality.

As good as the Eggs are today you just have to look at the engine bay of both cars to realise that the Pagani has been produced with more flair.

The Agera is now built with a truly custom engine, again using a block produced in England that has banished the very peaky characteristics of their old engine. And as can be seen from the video have produced a wickedly fast car. It will be interesting to see how it compares with the Pagani Huayra when performance figures appear for that car as according to Pagani it is much faster than the Zonda.

As for values, yes the Egg has suffered greatly when compared to the Zonda, which has to make them one of the performance bargains if you think £450k for a CCX is cheap.

The Zonda is not slow by the way, check out this well known F in Brazil being given some stick by its owner, 345kph anyone:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UorFKL7fm4&fea...

LFB you need to watch this program, it will give you a lot of insight into the Agera:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2_A0xNYxuE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnXV84lbLH0&fea...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO16nUSriyY&fea...

Koenigsegg today are a great company with wonderful ideas and a great product, but I am sorry to say that compared to Pagani they will always miss out on the flair that attracts buyers to these cars. You just have to look at the order book for the Huayra (which is cheaper than the Agera by the way) to see that

PS I would have a CCX parked next to my Zonda F in my dream garage

Edited by Streetrod on Thursday 17th November 12:45

Great post Streetrod. For me it's a head vs heart thing - without probably ever being lucky enough to drive either a Koenigsegg or Pagani, I have to go with my second-hand impressions from forums, TV, magazines etc. Everything you say in this post and others about the buyer's / market perception of the Koenigsegg as the (for want of a better word) 'inferior' product is correct, particularly the undeniable fact that the Zonda is the more desirable vehicle. I can't rationally say which is better or worse; as a dreamer, my heart tells me that I would personally desire a Koenigsegg more than a Zonda, but at the same time I'd be perfectly happy with either. (Obviously if I had the means, there'd be no dilemma and I'd just buy both!)

The Koenigsegg brand seems a bit stuck in limbo. Unlike them, Pagani has swiftly ascended to the top table, alongside the likes of Ferrari, Lambo, Bugatti etc. Koenigsegg is definitely below them in the pecking order, and yet is still apparently more stable and secure than other manufacturers who come along with insane hypercars, sell very few if any, and just disappear without trace (Cizeta, Vector, Spectre, Ascari?). Perhaps this comparison is factually erroneous, but I'd still say that, on the prestige league table, Koenigsegg would be placed above the likes of Gumpert and Spyker. I just don't know what they'd need to do to rise up to - here's one for UK Premier League football fans - the Champions League qualifying spots! There doesn't seem to be any problems with the cars they make now - the Agera is an absolute performance monster - but somehow I can't see what more the company can do to try and attract more interest.

[Trommel]

BelfastBoy said:

Everything you say in this post and others about the buyer's / market perception of the Koenigsegg as the (for want of a better word) 'inferior' product is correct, particularly the undeniable fact that the Zonda is the more desirable vehicle

It's interesting, usually you could point to using someone else's engine but the Zonda is guilty of that to (albeit V12 and not V8). I wonder if it's the slightly clunky looks or the lack of an Italian connection.

Either way, it isn't helped by people like Chris Harris giving the car a contemptuous and sneering review which to me seemed unfair.

[will_]

Trommel said:

BelfastBoy said:

Everything you say in this post and others about the buyer's / market perception of the Koenigsegg as the (for want of a better word) 'inferior' product is correct, particularly the undeniable fact that the Zonda is the more desirable vehicle

It's interesting, usually you could point to using someone else's engine but the Zonda is guilty of that to (albeit V12 and not V8). I wonder if it's the slightly clunky looks or the lack of an Italian connection.

Either way, it isn't helped by people like Chris Harris giving the car a contemptuous and sneering review which to me seemed unfair.

Indeed on the flipside, I wonder how much impact the "Metcalfe" effect had on the Zonda?

[Streetrod]

Trommel said:

BelfastBoy said:

Everything you say in this post and others about the buyer's / market perception of the Koenigsegg as the (for want of a better word) 'inferior' product is correct, particularly the undeniable fact that the Zonda is the more desirable vehicle

It's interesting, usually you could point to using someone else's engine but the Zonda is guilty of that to (albeit V12 and not V8). I wonder if it's the slightly clunky looks or the lack of an Italian connection.

Either way, it isn't helped by people like Chris Harris giving the car a contemptuous and sneering review which to me seemed unfair.

Normally I am a fan of Chris but on that occasion he seemed to have it in for Koenigsegg, but I'm not sure why.

Another factor that I think throws a little light onto the differences between these two companies is the owners which I think has a huge inpact on the way the companies are perceived.

Horacio Pagani is a small guy that carries himself with that almost indefinable Gallic cool which is almost impossible to imitate, you either have it or you don’t. He has not taken the time to even bother to learn to speak English properly but somehow this makes him even cooler. There is an ease about his demeanor and an absolute confidence in his product that just wins you over. You almost can’t help but like him.

Christian Von Koenigsegg is also a very likeable chap, you could see yourself sharing a pint with him down the pub and becoming mates. His English is perfect and he does not come across as arrogant or pompose (You could never say that of Enzo Ferrari). But for some reason, and to be honest I don’t know what it is, he does not command for a better word the "Romance" about his product that Pagani does. At the end of the day I think it’s a cultural thing, and as consumers we buy into that

[Trommel]

Is there a Swedish equivalent of maté? Maybe he could carry a can of soured herrings around or something.

[will_]

Trommel said:

Is there a Swedish equivalent of maté? Maybe he could carry a can of soured herrings around or something.

There's some odd tobacco based product they stick between their gums.....

[BelfastBoy]

will_ said:

Indeed on the flipside, I wonder how much impact the "Metcalfe" effect had on the Zonda?

Copious free publicity every month certainly did Pagani no harm whatsoever, I have to agree with you there. However, to be fair to Harry, some of his columns did give an interesting insight into the downsides of Zonda ownership, principally eye-wateringly high servicing / upgrading costs, and wasn't there an issue with the car's brakes at the start when he did a trackday at Spa?

On the engine issue, yes Pagani did use bought-in AMG engines. However, wasn't it the same engine that was used in the Mercedes CLK-GTR? If so, then for those who care about these things, there's some great racing pedigree right there.

Streetrod also makes an excellent point about perceived mystique / romanticism as well. Horacio Pagani not only came up with an amazing car, but he also had a credible personal background in the exotic car industry (bona fide connections to Fangio, Mercedes and Lamborghini, yeah?). Christian Von Koenigsegg, admirable and imaginative man though he appears to be, doesn't have that pedigree to call upon. That he's come so far so quickly is testament to his personal qualities. It's also unfortunate for Koenigsegg that Pagani rose to prominence at roughly the same time.

Edited by BelfastBoy on Friday 18th November 12:52

[WCZ]

was the original incarnation of the Zonda priced at around 300-350k gbp ?

they attract *so* much attention on the roads it's insane!

[chevronb37]

BelfastBoy said:

will_ said:

Indeed on the flipside, I wonder how much impact the "Metcalfe" effect had on the Zonda?

Copious free publicity every month certainly did Pagani no harm whatsoever, I have to agree with you there. However, to be fair to Harry, some of his columns did give an interesting insight into the downsides of Zonda ownership, principally eye-wateringly high servicing / upgrading costs, and wasn't there an issue with the car's brakes at the start when he did a trackday at Spa?

On the engine issue, yes Pagani did use bought-in AMG engines. However, wasn't it the same engine that was used in the Mercedes CLK-GTR? If so, then for those who care about these things, there's some great racing pedigree right there.

Streetrod also makes an excellent point about perceived mystique / romanticism as well. Horacio Pagani not only came up with an amazing car, but he also had a credible personal background in the exotic car industry (bona fide connections to Fangio, Mercedes and Lamborghini, yeah?). Christian Von Koenigsegg, admirable and imaginative man though he appears to be, doesn't have that pedigree to call upon. That he's come so far so quickly is testament to his personal qualities. It's also unfortunate for Koenigsegg that Pagani rose to prominence at roughly the same time.

Edited by BelfastBoy on Friday 18th November 12:52

To the best of my knowledge, the CLK-GTR engine was only used in the Zonda R. The road-going Zondas use a 7.3L block which I think was originally used in the SL73, though I'd gladly be corrected. For the record, the 6.0L engine sounds even better in the Zonda R than it did in the CLK-GTR, which always seemed a bit restrained compared to the McLaren F1 GTR when they competed together in 1997/8.

[will_]

WCZ said:

was the original incarnation of the Zonda priced at around 300-350k gbp ?

they attract *so* much attention on the roads it's insane!

Yes - and on the used market they dipped below £200k....

[Streetrod]

will_ said:

WCZ said:

was the original incarnation of the Zonda priced at around 300-350k gbp ?

they attract *so* much attention on the roads it's insane!

Yes - and on the used market they dipped below £200k....

That was a while ago now....

[will_]

Streetrod said:

will_ said:

WCZ said:

was the original incarnation of the Zonda priced at around 300-350k gbp ?

they attract *so* much attention on the roads it's insane!

Yes - and on the used market they dipped below £200k....

That was a while ago now....

So was the original incarnation of the Zonda!

I can't believe it was 11 years ago....

[Streetrod]

will_ said:

Streetrod said:

will_ said:

WCZ said:

was the original incarnation of the Zonda priced at around 300-350k gbp ?

they attract *so* much attention on the roads it's insane!

Yes - and on the used market they dipped below £200k....

That was a while ago now....

So was the original incarnation of the Zonda!

I can't believe it was 11 years ago....

Goes to show that a good design will have longevity, I wish I could say that for some of the more modern supercars, I suspect some will not age well

[Tom73]

Lambo FirstBlood said:

I met up with the chaps at Supervettura recently having ordered a BAC Mono from them and we got talking about the new eggs which haven't really been on my radar until recently.

I just wondered what everyone thought. I mean, if their website is to be believed, the Agera R does 0-200-0 in the same time as it takes a Veyron to do 0-200! It does 0-200mph in 17.68. Thats almost 5 seconds faster than a Veyron Super sports!!! 5 Seconds That is crazy fast. Shouldn't we all know about this? Maybe we do and its just me

Isn't it weird that they get so little attention compared to Bugatti and Pagani? They just don't seem to be adored in the same way as the other Hyper car brands. I did drive a CCR a long time ago but I hope to go out to Sweden and drive one of the new ones at some point and will post a thorough review.

I don't see it tbh. They may not have the same "passionate following" who seems to be able to turn every supercar thread on select forums into a Zonda, Veyron, Lambo or GTR debate... but they DO get plenty and plenty of attention compared to say the Zonda in the automotive media (give or take a obsessed EVO mag article here and there). Between attempting to buy SAAB, setting world records, being featured in Megafactories, winning Top Gear's Hyper Car Of The Year, etc etc etc their exposure is not something to be frowned upon. For instance the Top Gear Zonda review on youtube currently has 2 150 000 views compared to the CCX's 3 700 000. If you Google Pagani you get tons of diluted results (clothing brands and much more) and approx 31 000 000 hits. If you Google Koenigsegg, and there's only a handful of Königseggs with that spelling, you get 23 000 000 hits; nearly all of them company related. These are the facts.

Another myth is the one that says Pagani is selling more cars which simply isn't true. Pagani had a head start and are at about 100 cars while Koenigsegg following a 10 year period where they sold about 30 cars have climbed to about 90 cars.


I don't buy the idea of Pagani being the sophisticated party either. Yes, they're certainly up there in body work and design but all the innovation is Koenigsegg. You've got the mad doors, the stowable hard top, the patented VTG, supercharger and catalyst tech, a copious amount of flex fuel options, easy access maintenance (you can check all your fluids, change dampening settings in approx 20 mins and change the entire engine and gear box unit in 30 mins) and much more. They even build their own ECU in house, so your circuit board will have the Koenigsegg logo on it.

If you look at the people involved in the company you'll find engineers from a SAAB, Volvo, GM and swedish government funded technologhy institute (Innovatum). You have an old jet fighter tech on assembly and people like Mattias Vöcks and Leif Tufvesson involved - the former responsible for the infamous P1800 Volvo build and the latter winning several hot rod of the year awards in the US (Hot Rod Magazine's to name one) with his T6 Roadster and Caresto V8 (you mave have seen the feature on Fifth Gear). These guys are trumping the likes of Chip Foose on their spare time so hardly a bunch of dimwits throwing stuff together on chance. If you consider that the competence Koenigsegg is gathering their workers from are producing most of GM's drive trains, platforms and gear boxes and also supply Opel with a bunch of know how - then you're clearly not talking about happy amateurs. These are auto industry leading experts powered by several big car companies. Koenigsegg is their sandbox.



But I digress. What I really wanted to do was to post this casual (hands free) CCX drive with CvK:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkpDVxdL9U0

Edited by Tom73 on Saturday 19th November 05:19

[456mgt]

Tom73 said:

I don't see it tbh. They may not have the same "passionate following" who seems to be able to turn every supercar thread on select forums into a Zonda, Veyron, Lambo or GTR debate... but they DO get plenty and plenty of attention compared to say the Zonda in the automotive media (give or take a obsessed EVO mag article here and there). Between attempting to buy SAAB, setting world records, being featured in Megafactories, winning Top Gear's Hyper Car Of The Year, etc etc etc their exposure is not something to be frowned upon. For instance the Top Gear Zonda review on youtube currently has 2 150 000 views compared to the CCX's 3 700 000. If you Google Pagani you get tons of diluted results (clothing brands and much more) and approx 31 000 000 hits. If you Google Koenigsegg, and there's only a handful of Königseggs with that spelling, you get 23 000 000 hits; nearly all of them company related. These are the facts.

Another myth is the one that says Pagani is selling more cars which simply isn't true. Pagani had a head start and are at about 100 cars while Koenigsegg following a 10 year period where they sold about 30 cars have climbed to about 90 cars.


I don't buy the idea of Pagani being the sophisticated party either. Yes, they're certainly up there in body work and design but all the innovation is Koenigsegg. You've got the mad doors, the stowable hard top, the patented VTG, supercharger and catalyst tech, a copious amount of flex fuel options, easy access maintenance (you can check all your fluids, change dampening settings in approx 20 mins and change the entire engine and gear box unit in 30 mins) and much more. They even build their own ECU in house, so your circuit board will have the Koenigsegg logo on it.

If you look at the people involved in the company you'll find engineers from a SAAB, Volvo, GM and swedish government funded technologhy institute (Innovatum). You have an old jet fighter tech on assembly and people like Mattias Vöcks and Leif Tufvesson involved - the former responsible for the infamous P1800 Volvo build and the latter winning several hot rod of the year awards in the US (Hot Rod Magazine's to name one) with his T6 Roadster and Caresto V8 (you mave have seen the feature on Fifth Gear). These guys are trumping the likes of Chip Foose on their spare time so hardly a bunch of dimwits throwing stuff together on chance. If you consider that the competence Koenigsegg is gathering their workers from are producing most of GM's drive trains, platforms and gear boxes and also supply Opel with a bunch of know how - then you're clearly not talking about happy amateurs. These are auto industry leading experts powered by several big car companies. Koenigsegg is their sandbox.



But I digress. What I really wanted to do was to post this casual (hands free) CCX drive with CvK:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkpDVxdL9U0

Nothing like a few facts eh? That was very interesting, all of it. Impressive stuff.

[Streetrod]

Tom73 said:

I don't see it tbh. They may not have the same "passionate following" who seems to be able to turn every supercar thread on select forums into a Zonda, Veyron, Lambo or GTR debate... but they DO get plenty and plenty of attention compared to say the Zonda in the automotive media (give or take a obsessed EVO mag article here and there). Between attempting to buy SAAB, setting world records, being featured in Megafactories, winning Top Gear's Hyper Car Of The Year, etc etc etc their exposure is not something to be frowned upon. For instance the Top Gear Zonda review on youtube currently has 2 150 000 views compared to the CCX's 3 700 000. If you Google Pagani you get tons of diluted results (clothing brands and much more) and approx 31 000 000 hits. If you Google Koenigsegg, and there's only a handful of Königseggs with that spelling, you get 23 000 000 hits; nearly all of them company related. These are the facts.

Another myth is the one that says Pagani is selling more cars which simply isn't true. Pagani had a head start and are at about 100 cars while Koenigsegg following a 10 year period where they sold about 30 cars have climbed to about 90 cars.


I don't buy the idea of Pagani being the sophisticated party either. Yes, they're certainly up there in body work and design but all the innovation is Koenigsegg. You've got the mad doors, the stowable hard top, the patented VTG, supercharger and catalyst tech, a copious amount of flex fuel options, easy access maintenance (you can check all your fluids, change dampening settings in approx 20 mins and change the entire engine and gear box unit in 30 mins) and much more. They even build their own ECU in house, so your circuit board will have the Koenigsegg logo on it.

If you look at the people involved in the company you'll find engineers from a SAAB, Volvo, GM and swedish government funded technologhy institute (Innovatum). You have an old jet fighter tech on assembly and people like Mattias Vöcks and Leif Tufvesson involved - the former responsible for the infamous P1800 Volvo build and the latter winning several hot rod of the year awards in the US (Hot Rod Magazine's to name one) with his T6 Roadster and Caresto V8 (you mave have seen the feature on Fifth Gear). These guys are trumping the likes of Chip Foose on their spare time so hardly a bunch of dimwits throwing stuff together on chance. If you consider that the competence Koenigsegg is gathering their workers from are producing most of GM's drive trains, platforms and gear boxes and also supply Opel with a bunch of know how - then you're clearly not talking about happy amateurs. These are auto industry leading experts powered by several big car companies. Koenigsegg is their sandbox.



But I digress. What I really wanted to do was to post this casual (hands free) CCX drive with CvK:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkpDVxdL9U0

Edited by Tom73 on Saturday 19th November 05:19

Tom, great post, but I'm afraid some of your facts are incorrect. Let’s start with the build numbers. Pagani have built close to 140 cars, not 100, so that’s well over 40% more than Ksegg. You can get a full list of chassis numbers and details on each car here. Yes it’s a Pagani geek site but they have all the info to back things up: www.pagani-zonda.net.

And I agree with you that some of the tech that Ksegg have developed has been great. But a lot of the advantages you apply to the Ksegg also apply to the Zonda, the ease of maintenace being just one of them.

As a Hotrodder myself I am more than aware of the skills and the talents of the Crew that Ksegg on board. But the fact is from a sales point of view Pagani still lead the way