Tea and biscuits required
Discussion
zarjaz1991 said:
I honestly think, given your condition, all this is doing you more harm than good. I doubt you'll get much money out of them in the grand scheme of things and if it were me I'd have washed my hands of them at least a year ago and probably more like two.
Not in my nature to do that I'm afraid, I cannot and will not stand back and let a bunch of bully-boys, hiding behind a large corporation treat me like this. Additionally, I would not stand back and watch them do it to someone else. Without a doubt this has impacted my health but that's a small price to pay if I can get to a position where they're held accountable for their behaviour.I'm not naïve enough to think that this will give them a conscience or change their ways but by the same token, they need to understand that not everyone is prepared to get rolled over and royally shafted by them without consequence.
I am not Spartacus ;-)
Following the day in Court on the 20th there are positives and negatives. We went through the agreed list of issues under the subject headings of direct disability discrimination, discrimination arising from disability and unfair dismissal.
Their lawyer couldn't answer the questions about whether the company had a legitimate aim and were their actions a proportionate way of achieving that legitimate aim. He bumbled and blustered for a while but then had to admit that the answer was No and the only reason he could offer was "business efficiency".
He also had to acknowledge that according to their own "Long Term Absence Tracker" document (that they sent me during disclosure) that I had demonstrably been treated differently to 10 other people within the same division of the business. That is a bit of an issue for them as there are only 12 people on the tracker.
The judge ripped into them about how they'd worded their 'list of issues' document and also that they hadn't brought him a copy. The only downside from my perspective is that the full merits hearing will not be heard until at least May 2020! This is far from ideal but on a positive note, I can at least forget about it all until nearer the time. The only outstanding event now is that they have until Friday to produce a new 'list of issues' document and hopefully, at some stage in the near future, there will be the official court order from the 20th that summarises the discussions and the order to produce a re-worded document.
I was never under any illusion that this would be a protracted process but I didn't think it would drag on for 3 years!!
Si
Their lawyer couldn't answer the questions about whether the company had a legitimate aim and were their actions a proportionate way of achieving that legitimate aim. He bumbled and blustered for a while but then had to admit that the answer was No and the only reason he could offer was "business efficiency".
He also had to acknowledge that according to their own "Long Term Absence Tracker" document (that they sent me during disclosure) that I had demonstrably been treated differently to 10 other people within the same division of the business. That is a bit of an issue for them as there are only 12 people on the tracker.
The judge ripped into them about how they'd worded their 'list of issues' document and also that they hadn't brought him a copy. The only downside from my perspective is that the full merits hearing will not be heard until at least May 2020! This is far from ideal but on a positive note, I can at least forget about it all until nearer the time. The only outstanding event now is that they have until Friday to produce a new 'list of issues' document and hopefully, at some stage in the near future, there will be the official court order from the 20th that summarises the discussions and the order to produce a re-worded document.
I was never under any illusion that this would be a protracted process but I didn't think it would drag on for 3 years!!
Si
chukka64 said:
Following the day in Court on the 20th there are positives and negatives. We went through the agreed list of issues under the subject headings of direct disability discrimination, discrimination arising from disability and unfair dismissal.
Their lawyer couldn't answer the questions about whether the company had a legitimate aim and were their actions a proportionate way of achieving that legitimate aim. He bumbled and blustered for a while but then had to admit that the answer was No and the only reason he could offer was "business efficiency".
He also had to acknowledge that according to their own "Long Term Absence Tracker" document (that they sent me during disclosure) that I had demonstrably been treated differently to 10 other people within the same division of the business. That is a bit of an issue for them as there are only 12 people on the tracker.
The judge ripped into them about how they'd worded their 'list of issues' document and also that they hadn't brought him a copy. The only downside from my perspective is that the full merits hearing will not be heard until at least May 2020! This is far from ideal but on a positive note, I can at least forget about it all until nearer the time. The only outstanding event now is that they have until Friday to produce a new 'list of issues' document and hopefully, at some stage in the near future, there will be the official court order from the 20th that summarises the discussions and the order to produce a re-worded document.
I was never under any illusion that this would be a protracted process but I didn't think it would drag on for 3 years!!
Si
I'm surprised that at no stage they have tried to put this to bed and offer you a compromise agreement???Their lawyer couldn't answer the questions about whether the company had a legitimate aim and were their actions a proportionate way of achieving that legitimate aim. He bumbled and blustered for a while but then had to admit that the answer was No and the only reason he could offer was "business efficiency".
He also had to acknowledge that according to their own "Long Term Absence Tracker" document (that they sent me during disclosure) that I had demonstrably been treated differently to 10 other people within the same division of the business. That is a bit of an issue for them as there are only 12 people on the tracker.
The judge ripped into them about how they'd worded their 'list of issues' document and also that they hadn't brought him a copy. The only downside from my perspective is that the full merits hearing will not be heard until at least May 2020! This is far from ideal but on a positive note, I can at least forget about it all until nearer the time. The only outstanding event now is that they have until Friday to produce a new 'list of issues' document and hopefully, at some stage in the near future, there will be the official court order from the 20th that summarises the discussions and the order to produce a re-worded document.
I was never under any illusion that this would be a protracted process but I didn't think it would drag on for 3 years!!
Si
FocusRS3 said:
I'm surprised that at no stage they have tried to put this to bed and offer you a compromise agreement???
They seem more than happy to simply drag it out in the hope that I either a) give up - not happening or b) die - not planning on it but obviously not something that I can guarantee :-)It is possible that there are some meetings going on to discuss trying to make this go away but at this stage, I've not been made aware of anything. Trouble is, they're used to just steamrollering people.
chukka64 said:
They seem more than happy to simply drag it out in the hope that I either a) give up - not happening or b) die - not planning on it but obviously not something that I can guarantee :-)
It is possible that there are some meetings going on to discuss trying to make this go away but at this stage, I've not been made aware of anything. Trouble is, they're used to just steamrollering people.
Well if/when they settle don't forget to award them your Legal bill if in fact you have one or at least all associated costs you may have incurred.It is possible that there are some meetings going on to discuss trying to make this go away but at this stage, I've not been made aware of anything. Trouble is, they're used to just steamrollering people.
Its exactly what i did......
FocusRS3 said:
Well if/when they settle don't forget to award them your Legal bill if in fact you have one or at least all associated costs you may have incurred.
Its exactly what i did......
Yes, I definitely would have but have represented myself throughout so haven't really incurred any monetary costs as such. Everything else was listed on my schedule of loss. As I say, they're fully aware of the impact that it all has on me so, even if they felt that, as I do, they don't have a leg to stand on and are as guilty as sin, it's still in their best interests to delay as long as possible in the hope that I just go away.Its exactly what i did......
Si
dingg said:
I went through something similar, I won a race discrimination case against my employer, looking back it wasn't worth the associated stress or effort, the company's lawyers did very well out of the situation though.
White male British Christian btw
You're spot on, I'm sure their legal team, although on retainer, are milking this for all it's worth. The stupid thing is, they could have had a grown up conversation with me at any time, they chose not to. They chose underhand and strongarm tactics, aggression, threats and general lies and incompetence. White male British Christian btw
I've seen it through this far so may as well keep wind-milling until the end ;-)
Another quick update, as this farce took another turn yesterday. Out of the clear blue sky I received an email from the Company GDPR team. They asked if I could be a little more specific in the my subject access request as there were nearly 6000 emails where I was the subject!! They also explained that as there were so many returns, they reserved the right to either a) take an extra 2 months or b) disregard the request completely as the request is "manifestly unfounded and excessive".
Ok, a couple of issues with all of that.
1) I submitted a very specific SAR on the 13th Feb 2019 and gave them their permitted 30 days to respond
2) They sent me a disc with the info within 5 days
3) I contacted them again on the 20th Feb 2019 and informed them that there was quite obviously a lot of information missing, I even told them specifically what documents were missing and questioned whether it was a deliberate omission
4) They sent another disc that had a little more info but still hadn't addressed the omissions
5) I reported this to the ICO who subsequently wrote to them on the 13th May and told them to comply with their legal obligations or, if they felt that they had, to contact me and explain in detail how they had complied. Failure to do so and the ICO would consider exercising their own powers.
6) The 2nd disc did reveal a couple of incriminating documents which were subsequently added to the evidence bundle
7) Their legal team contacted the Court to tell them how they had fully complied and that the Company was satisfied that they had supplied everything that they had.
Then suddenly here we are, 7 months later and the GDPR team tell me that there are nearly 6000 emails. The whole thing is just becoming laughable.
Si
Ok, a couple of issues with all of that.
1) I submitted a very specific SAR on the 13th Feb 2019 and gave them their permitted 30 days to respond
2) They sent me a disc with the info within 5 days
3) I contacted them again on the 20th Feb 2019 and informed them that there was quite obviously a lot of information missing, I even told them specifically what documents were missing and questioned whether it was a deliberate omission
4) They sent another disc that had a little more info but still hadn't addressed the omissions
5) I reported this to the ICO who subsequently wrote to them on the 13th May and told them to comply with their legal obligations or, if they felt that they had, to contact me and explain in detail how they had complied. Failure to do so and the ICO would consider exercising their own powers.
6) The 2nd disc did reveal a couple of incriminating documents which were subsequently added to the evidence bundle
7) Their legal team contacted the Court to tell them how they had fully complied and that the Company was satisfied that they had supplied everything that they had.
Then suddenly here we are, 7 months later and the GDPR team tell me that there are nearly 6000 emails. The whole thing is just becoming laughable.
Si
I too am very surprised they haven't 'paid you to go away'. Surely it would be cheaper even now, to pay you your salary in full up to date rather than put you (and them) through this circus?
I suppose they are hoping that because so many managers and HR staff have left, there is no way to corroborate your 'proof' of their incompetence. And that they 'might' get away with less overall costs.
I suppose they are hoping that because so many managers and HR staff have left, there is no way to corroborate your 'proof' of their incompetence. And that they 'might' get away with less overall costs.
Tyre Smoke said:
I too am very surprised they haven't 'paid you to go away'. Surely it would be cheaper even now, to pay you your salary in full up to date rather than put you (and them) through this circus?
I suppose they are hoping that because so many managers and HR staff have left, there is no way to corroborate your 'proof' of their incompetence. And that they 'might' get away with less overall costs.
The proof is there for all to see unfortunately for them. The evidence absolutely supports my case that they treated me differently to others and the only material difference is my disability. As for the ones that have left, they have submitted witness statements that are works of fiction and again, the evidence, in black and white, contradicts their version of events. Their lawyer pretty much admitted discrimination arising from disability at the preliminary hearing as he could not come up with a legitimate reason as to why I was treated as I was.I suppose they are hoping that because so many managers and HR staff have left, there is no way to corroborate your 'proof' of their incompetence. And that they 'might' get away with less overall costs.
The whole thing has just become farcical, the evidence supports my version of events, they have nothing to support their own, ever changing story and come the day of the full merits hearing, it becomes public.
chukka64 said:
The proof is there for all to see unfortunately for them. The evidence absolutely supports my case that they treated me differently to others and the only material difference is my disability. As for the ones that have left, they have submitted witness statements that are works of fiction and again, the evidence, in black and white, contradicts their version of events. Their lawyer pretty much admitted discrimination arising from disability at the preliminary hearing as he could not come up with a legitimate reason as to why I was treated as I was.
The whole thing has just become farcical, the evidence supports my version of events, they have nothing to support their own, ever changing story and come the day of the full merits hearing, it becomes public.
And thats when they will put the brakes on it i'm sure as once the case is heard its in the public domain as you say.The whole thing has just become farcical, the evidence supports my version of events, they have nothing to support their own, ever changing story and come the day of the full merits hearing, it becomes public.
Appalling behaviour regardless....
OP without being specific what industry/sector is this?
How long were you there? We’re you a member of a union? We’re you a member of their pension scheme? You might find that you were entitled to I’ll health early retirement with a possibility that they might have to credit you with many years service or possibly enough for full pension.
Someone I know had 6 years left until retirement date but unbeknown to them the pension scheme allowed employees to stay on to 65 giving the possibility of a 45/60ths pension rather than 40/60ths. They got 11 years credit and an instant pension on more than they would have got had they worked to ‘normal’ retirement date at 60.
Whilst I fully appreciate you want to show them up for what they are the best outcome for you is a settlement or full pension or both! I think you’ve done very well dealing with this yourself however there will be little twists and turns and aspects of the law you will not be aware of. I can highly recommend an Employment Lawyer that hates bullies and does PH rates too. I suspect if you lawyer up he might get this settled for you. PM me
How long were you there? We’re you a member of a union? We’re you a member of their pension scheme? You might find that you were entitled to I’ll health early retirement with a possibility that they might have to credit you with many years service or possibly enough for full pension.
Someone I know had 6 years left until retirement date but unbeknown to them the pension scheme allowed employees to stay on to 65 giving the possibility of a 45/60ths pension rather than 40/60ths. They got 11 years credit and an instant pension on more than they would have got had they worked to ‘normal’ retirement date at 60.
Whilst I fully appreciate you want to show them up for what they are the best outcome for you is a settlement or full pension or both! I think you’ve done very well dealing with this yourself however there will be little twists and turns and aspects of the law you will not be aware of. I can highly recommend an Employment Lawyer that hates bullies and does PH rates too. I suspect if you lawyer up he might get this settled for you. PM me
I'm in a similar condition. I've been off work for 8 months with a spinal injury which require three rounds surgery to fix. I stopped getting paid SSP about three months ago and am currently lucky to be able to live off savings. It's touch and go whether I'll ever be able to return to my current job due to the amount of physical labour involved. I can't really walk properly, climbing stairs can be done but takes quite along time and have a limp, can't lift anything above 2kg, balance is all over the place and have chronic pain. Not to mention the medication which isn't the best at making you function normally and have a normal routine.
I can't really do a lot until my surgery is completed and have been told doing any physical work could make it worse. I haven't heard from HR for at last 6 months but I'm stilling putting lines in from my GP.
I can't really do a lot until my surgery is completed and have been told doing any physical work could make it worse. I haven't heard from HR for at last 6 months but I'm stilling putting lines in from my GP.
This reads like a film script!!!
If this happened to me, I suspect I'd respond in exactly the same way. For all that it might not help my health to engage in the fight, I suspect it would damage my mental health even more to know I'd let them ride roughshod over me.
Best of luck in getting a satisfactory outcome.
If this happened to me, I suspect I'd respond in exactly the same way. For all that it might not help my health to engage in the fight, I suspect it would damage my mental health even more to know I'd let them ride roughshod over me.
Best of luck in getting a satisfactory outcome.
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