New Red Arrows Jet
Discussion
IanH755 said:
The longer answer is one given time and again whenever people say "send it to Ukraine" unironically - all it would do is hurt Ukraine, diluting their already under-strain AF, and making them less effective for the next 2+ years at least which is the average time taken to remove experienced pilots/groundcrew from the front line, re-train them to the new aircraft, get them back into Ukraine and experienced, all whilst the jets get lower and lower in number because they lack the supplies to keep them flying and it'd be much longer for new pilots/groundcrew etc etc etc - stuff HTE and their ilk cares nothing about, as long as their ego gets a boost from the positive feedback given by others in the echo chamber who generally react angrily when people outside point this out to them. The entire NP&E Ukraine thread is rammed full of these types, making it virtually unusable nowadays, as anyone pointing this out gets accused of being pro-Russian rather than being (more correctly) "anti-moron".
That's what I was heading towards, but you said it better. You can't just donate fighters like you donate a loaf of bread or some old clothes into the nice little bag they push through you letterbox. Dashnine said:
But more directly by an arrogant pilot dumping a plane on a traffic junction at Shoreham.
In the overall picture of our now-fearful world that was a blip. But again, leading back to my point, had that been 1950, people would have said 'Nasty accident', swept up the bits and carried on.tangerine_sedge said:
I'm optimistic that the Red Arrows will continue in some form. The RAF will always need training aircraft (until drones take over!), so they'll just end up flying whatever the RAF chooses for it's future fast jet trainer.
Isn't a lot of training these days done on a very powerful propeller aircraft that behaves like a jet? I've seen them at Fairford and Farnborough. A quick google suggests I'm referring to the Pilatus PC-21.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilatus_PC-21
"It has been claimed by Pilatus that the PC-21 possesses speed and climb rates previously normally performed only by jet-powered aircraft. It is also fitted with a high-speed profile wing, rated for maneuvers up to 8g, complete with hydraulically-assisted ailerons and spoilers which enable the execution of fighter-like rates of roll and other maneuvers."
Simpo Two said:
In the overall picture of our now-fearful world that was a blip. But again, leading back to my point, had that been 1950, people would have said 'Nasty accident', swept up the bits and carried on.
It was the 1952 Farnborough air show crash that led to the introduction of the 230 metre minimum separation distance between the display and crowd lines amongst other safety changes.Hill92 said:
It was the 1952 Farnborough air show crash that led to the introduction of the 230 metre minimum separation distance between the display and crowd lines amongst other safety changes.
But still far removed from where we are today. (Wouldn't it have been yards? 250 yards I deduce)Panamax said:
Isn't a lot of training these days done on a very powerful propeller aircraft that behaves like a jet? I've seen them at Fairford and Farnborough. A quick google suggests I'm referring to the Pilatus PC-21.
Capable it may be, but I'm not sure you could go straight from that to a front line jet fighter.Simpo Two said:
In the overall picture of our now-fearful world that was a blip. But again, leading back to my point, had that been 1950, people would have said 'Nasty accident', swept up the bits and carried on.
In 1946 30 people were killed and hundreds injured in a crush at a Bolton Wanderers Vs Stoke City match. The match was halted while the injured were extracted and the dead laid out on the side of the pitch covered in coats. Then the touchline was redrawn to keep the players out of the way of the corpses and the match restarted. Final score was a nil nil draw. Panamax said:
tangerine_sedge said:
I'm optimistic that the Red Arrows will continue in some form. The RAF will always need training aircraft (until drones take over!), so they'll just end up flying whatever the RAF chooses for it's future fast jet trainer.
Isn't a lot of training these days done on a very powerful propeller aircraft that behaves like a jet? I've seen them at Fairford and Farnborough. A quick google suggests I'm referring to the Pilatus PC-21.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilatus_PC-21
"It has been claimed by Pilatus that the PC-21 possesses speed and climb rates previously normally performed only by jet-powered aircraft. It is also fitted with a high-speed profile wing, rated for maneuvers up to 8g, complete with hydraulically-assisted ailerons and spoilers which enable the execution of fighter-like rates of roll and other maneuvers."
IanH755 said:
Short answer - No - but posters like the one you replied to are only interested in "saying something they think will get them internet praise from their echo chamber" rather than saying something that actually might be worthwhile. Once you spot the same old names saying the same old silliness its easy to ignore them and bypass their silliness.
Yet apparently you can't resist the temptation to indulge in infantile ad hominem; I understand the cost and time implications of my suggestion well enough.LotusOmega375D said:
So why not keep a dozen or so Hawk T2s just for the Red Arrows when the time comes? It s not like the RAF still use the T1 for anything else nowadays, so it would be a similar situation.
Trying to avoid what's happening now. Running two similar but separate fleets. Plus the g limits are lower on the T2.
16v_paddy said:
I vaguely recall reading something along the lines of the nose or front end of the T2 has some odd aerodynamic effect that makes them unsuitable for close formation aerobatics - could also be nonsense though 
I think the only version of the Hawk still being made (in India) is different again.48k said:
There's only so much fast-jet training you can do in turboprop before you do actually need to be flying a jet aircraft. The Hawk T2 has about 15 years of life left so it's quite urgent that a replacement is organised especially if they decide to go down the "brand new aircraft" road with something like the Aeralis.
Yes, yes, yes. However, the Red Arrows don't need terrain flying round the mach loop, or whatever it's called, and they don't need to bomb Iran's nuclear facilities. It's a display team for Silverstone and your local village fete. Nothing like watching Sukhoi taking off on full afterburners, proceed vertically into the sky and then fly down backwards. I entirely accept you need modern jet fighters for that.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jul-oK8jMM4
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