E46 M3 Stance Project
Discussion
Windymiller said:
Still don't understand why, to fit tyres with a reduced width, you use wider wheels?
Firstly, the OEM wheels were staggered, which I didn't want.Secondly, narrower tyres on wider wheels allows running at lower pressures, which gives more grip, which makes it go faster.
Reminds me of the TG episode when they modified a Renault.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trJ4kL8dbYA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trJ4kL8dbYA
93Jay said:
I went to the recent Sunday service in my stanced car, I don't know how it went down and don't care, I don't think anybody really gives a crap in real life, it's your car do as you like.
It's Pistonheads, home of the "I gave someone the finger at a roundabout then s
t myself when he got out and confronted me"They would have been seething inside, leaving early to get back behind the safety of their keyboard. With the door locked, obviously.
SMcP114 said:
It's Pistonheads, home of the "I gave someone the finger at a roundabout then st myself when he got out and confronted me"
They would have been seething inside, leaving early to get back behind the safety of their keyboard. With the door locked, obviously.
Genuinely laughed out loud at that one.t myself when he got out and confronted me"They would have been seething inside, leaving early to get back behind the safety of their keyboard. With the door locked, obviously.
Output Flange said:
Mr Whippy said:
But even with that limitation, their engineering abilities and understanding probably mean a compromise that is still better than a focussed criteria after-market solution by someone who knows nothing of the entire package at hand.
The car is better for you and that is all that counts. But from a perspective of an engineering solution to your needs it's probably crap.
If you could have the same feel, but looking standard would you?
Or is your over-riding criteria that it's lower and has wheels sitting further out and more camber? Ie, visual only?
Dave
Dave, me ol' mucker, you're talking nonsense now.The car is better for you and that is all that counts. But from a perspective of an engineering solution to your needs it's probably crap.
If you could have the same feel, but looking standard would you?
Or is your over-riding criteria that it's lower and has wheels sitting further out and more camber? Ie, visual only?
Dave
I couldn't give a monkey's how it looks - genuinely don't care. I wanted it to be fast around a track, therefore everything I did was with that goal.
To achieve that, I fitted 3-way adjustable coilovers (including full coilover rears - a better setup than the factory provided), adjustable ARBs, extra bracing etc etc. It was then given a geo setup to make it fast on track. Now personally, I prefer a car to be a bit softer than some other people do, so it ran stock bushes, had the dampers set slightly softer than others might, and things like that.
It was also lowered over standard.
The result of all that was as I posted above - it had a better ride quality than new OEM on the road (hard to believe perhaps, but true), it turned in better, it had better high speed stability, it had better stability under braking - I could go on.
That it was lower and ran more camber was a by-product of achieving my goal. I also ran a 225 tyre on a 9" rim - going slightly narrower allows you to run a lower pressure, which in turn helps with grip and traction.
So, let me put this to you - given my car was faster and more comfortable on track AND road following the modifications, do you think that was luck or judgement?
According to you, nothing in the aftermarket will make a car better. That quite clearly isn't true, and I'm (repeatedly) giving you first-hand experience to demonstrate this.
The funniest thing is that most people seem to be offended by pictures of cars with ridiculous camber which the OP doesn't want to do (I think). This thread has just become stupid.
shalmaneser said:
problemchild1976 said:
Stanced pics.....
Some lovely looking cars that the owners spend a lot of time making sure they look as fantastic as possible. Huge link between stance and detailing
JJ
All look like they're broken.Some lovely looking cars that the owners spend a lot of time making sure they look as fantastic as possible. Huge link between stance and detailing
JJ
Lawbags said:
In my opinion, if someone comes onto a forum with the name 'Pistonheads' with a logo of 'Speed matters' with a stanced car, they should expect abuse.
Surely the clue is in the title? The logo isn't 'Stretch matters', or any other crap.
Newbie gets it right!Surely the clue is in the title? The logo isn't 'Stretch matters', or any other crap.
Mr Whippy said:
They are compromised, but by people who make the entire car and understand it fully. Thus their compromises are often still very good and probably better than someone elses focussed after-market change.
We seem to have a huge problem with OEM's making compromises despite us still buying their cars and leaving all the hard to change stuff alone, clearly all the hard to change stuff was done right.
But when it comes to easy to change stuff then we feel that we can easily find a better compromise for our needs and the OEM engineers must have done that and made it compromised
I say unless you can define your ideal suspension and understand why it is now ideal vs before, then you shouldn't touch it.
Starting out with, my car needs to roll less and be stiffer and lower, isn't understanding anything. I could offer up numerous examples where doing what you *think* will improve suspension actually does the opposite. Ie, lowering a car increases roll, or reduces grip etc etc... Or stiffer and less suspension travel = worse handling, or worse grip etc.
Dave
Whatever.We seem to have a huge problem with OEM's making compromises despite us still buying their cars and leaving all the hard to change stuff alone, clearly all the hard to change stuff was done right.
But when it comes to easy to change stuff then we feel that we can easily find a better compromise for our needs and the OEM engineers must have done that and made it compromised
I say unless you can define your ideal suspension and understand why it is now ideal vs before, then you shouldn't touch it.
Starting out with, my car needs to roll less and be stiffer and lower, isn't understanding anything. I could offer up numerous examples where doing what you *think* will improve suspension actually does the opposite. Ie, lowering a car increases roll, or reduces grip etc etc... Or stiffer and less suspension travel = worse handling, or worse grip etc.
Dave
Point is that the aftermarket exists because people will shift the parameters of that original compromise this way and that. If I strip out the interior of the car, take out the spare wheel etc. I might find that the car is now 150Kg lighter than before. The original engineers would never have designed for that.
If you're going to mod the suspension, it would certainly help if you measured all the parameters of the suspension before you started, because then you'd know what you'd changed and by how much. But on the other hand, there isn't anything to say that going 25mm lower and 25% harder springs is going to make the car better or worse, but your times round a track would, if that's the criteria you're measuring by. Nothing wrong with experimenting. Nothing wrong with using other people's experience with the same stuff you're buying, so long as you accept that it's anecdotal.
Stanced I guess; I didn't realise I was "stancing" it at the time 
But I increased the track width by 50mm front & rear.
Lowered about 2.5" on adjustable height & dampening coilovers.
R32 stiffer ARBs front & rear.
Rebushed suspension rubbers with metal/vulcanised sleeved wishbone bushes.
It was all done to help get rid of under steer & sharpen up the handling, especially feedback & cornering at speed.
It put down its 300 horses a lot better!
But I increased the track width by 50mm front & rear.
Lowered about 2.5" on adjustable height & dampening coilovers.
R32 stiffer ARBs front & rear.
Rebushed suspension rubbers with metal/vulcanised sleeved wishbone bushes.
It was all done to help get rid of under steer & sharpen up the handling, especially feedback & cornering at speed.
It put down its 300 horses a lot better!
After market of course can be faster, if faster is your aim. Just accept that typically it is moving the compromise away from comfort and perhaps all round usability.
Renault for example fitted Sachs to a Clio Troupy, Vauxhall fitted Bilsteins to the Corsa VXR Nurburgring, Lotus fit Ohlins as the LSS option to Elise/Exige derivatives (+many others but I'm not wasting time on Google!). In all cases these 'sports' version are designed to go quicker. Not just track quicker but b-road too. Fancy 3-way shocks with remote reservoirs etc don't have to be rock solid and thus no good on the road.
As much as I think manufactures usually do a good job of striking a balance, it is naive to think they can not be improved upon. After all you will likely end up using the same companies that OE's use such as Bilstein, and then using more expensive and higher quality components like mono-tube dampers with thicker pistons etc than you would find on a typical OE setup.
(btw all this obviously relates to quality components and not your cheap & nasty sub 1k ebay coilover specials!!)
Renault for example fitted Sachs to a Clio Troupy, Vauxhall fitted Bilsteins to the Corsa VXR Nurburgring, Lotus fit Ohlins as the LSS option to Elise/Exige derivatives (+many others but I'm not wasting time on Google!). In all cases these 'sports' version are designed to go quicker. Not just track quicker but b-road too. Fancy 3-way shocks with remote reservoirs etc don't have to be rock solid and thus no good on the road.
As much as I think manufactures usually do a good job of striking a balance, it is naive to think they can not be improved upon. After all you will likely end up using the same companies that OE's use such as Bilstein, and then using more expensive and higher quality components like mono-tube dampers with thicker pistons etc than you would find on a typical OE setup.
(btw all this obviously relates to quality components and not your cheap & nasty sub 1k ebay coilover specials!!)
Kentish said:
Stanced I guess; I didn't realise I was "stancing" it at the time
lovely modified TT you have there........it does have a stanced look about it but you haven't done it to be a part of the stanced community.
just like driving around in the 60s on a moped covered in lights doesn't make you a mod but is a mod style......
loving that Aixam though. Silly wheel angle but how cool to take a car that no sensible person would ever buy, let alone modify! thats what makes car modding so flippin cool!!!
OEM cars are made to be as cheap as possible, appeal to the masses (men, women, old people, gay, straight, etc..) they must handle predictably (understeering where possible rather than constant oversteer) be able to drive at 25mph to the shops 3 times a week or spend hours at 100mph on the motorway. EVERYTHING on an OEM car is a compromise, and not optimised for anything.
I got nasty messages about my car as well by people who knew nothing about it but i don't care. nothing a good retort can silence (oh, and a look through their PH garage while you chuckle to yourself)
JJ
Cant believe the arguments against modifying a car are so strong. When you buy a car you have the right to do to it what you want.
I have a few friends who race in the mgzf series. They're cars have 190bhp, no interior, aftermarket suspension and brakes. An M3 wouldnt be able to keep up with one around the track. There has been talk of comprimise, of course, everything is a comprimise. Thats a part of life. An m3 is designed so that it can be driven by anyone from 17 to 90 years old. BMW want to sell their cars to as many people as possible.
To say you cannot improve is bks. You can tailor a car to how you want by making changes and comprimises for you.
My old integrale had a few mods. High lift cam, chipped, higher boost, drilled and grooved aftermarket brakes, upgraded suspension. And it was st loads better than standard.
I seem to remember ferraris used for test drives by press were tweaked in the old days
I have a few friends who race in the mgzf series. They're cars have 190bhp, no interior, aftermarket suspension and brakes. An M3 wouldnt be able to keep up with one around the track. There has been talk of comprimise, of course, everything is a comprimise. Thats a part of life. An m3 is designed so that it can be driven by anyone from 17 to 90 years old. BMW want to sell their cars to as many people as possible.
To say you cannot improve is b
ks. You can tailor a car to how you want by making changes and comprimises for you. My old integrale had a few mods. High lift cam, chipped, higher boost, drilled and grooved aftermarket brakes, upgraded suspension. And it was s
t loads better than standard.I seem to remember ferraris used for test drives by press were tweaked in the old days
Cant believe the arguments against modifying a car are so strong. When you buy a car you have the right to do to it what you want.
I have a few friends who race in the mgzf series. They're cars have 190bhp, no interior, aftermarket suspension and brakes. An M3 wouldnt be able to keep up with one around the track. There has been talk of comprimise, of course, everything is a comprimise. Thats a part of life. An m3 is designed so that it can be driven by anyone from 17 to 90 years old. BMW want to sell their cars to as many people as possible.
To say you cannot improve is bks. You can tailor a car to how you want by making changes and comprimises for you.
My old integrale had a few mods. High lift cam, chipped, higher boost, drilled and grooved aftermarket brakes, upgraded suspension. And it was st loads better than standard.
I seem to remember ferraris used for test drives by press were tweaked in the old days
I have a few friends who race in the mgzf series. They're cars have 190bhp, no interior, aftermarket suspension and brakes. An M3 wouldnt be able to keep up with one around the track. There has been talk of comprimise, of course, everything is a comprimise. Thats a part of life. An m3 is designed so that it can be driven by anyone from 17 to 90 years old. BMW want to sell their cars to as many people as possible.
To say you cannot improve is b
ks. You can tailor a car to how you want by making changes and comprimises for you. My old integrale had a few mods. High lift cam, chipped, higher boost, drilled and grooved aftermarket brakes, upgraded suspension. And it was s
t loads better than standard.I seem to remember ferraris used for test drives by press were tweaked in the old days
To be honest I wouldn't describe the OP's car as stanced either. If describe this as stanced -
Stancing is more than just lowering a car and that's it, it's about getting the wheels to sit as flush with the arch as possible, or there's the style referred to as 'demon camber' where everything has wheels pointing in stupid directions and looks utterly retarded. It's not something I'd do but when a stance car is done right it can look awesome.
Stancing is more than just lowering a car and that's it, it's about getting the wheels to sit as flush with the arch as possible, or there's the style referred to as 'demon camber' where everything has wheels pointing in stupid directions and looks utterly retarded. It's not something I'd do but when a stance car is done right it can look awesome.
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