Cool things seen on FlightRadar
Discussion
El stovey said:
Oh yeah, I remember reading about that years ago. I'm not even sure if they're still a thing these days 
as they have direct satellite tracking feeds now. That's all very much at the technical end of tracking and beyond my knowledge scope. I'm a 'data' guy and do the research and analysis to ID the planes from their hex codes. Currently working with one aviation authority to provide them with a database of miscoded transponders which they'll use to contact the owners/operators to enforce compliance and have them recode them correctly. This is becoming a major problem across the world, particularly in South America and should eventually lead to better data quality for everyone from ATC to the amateur aircraft spotter using flight tracking websites 
.Lemming Train said:
2.The sat tracking is still in development. Theoretically all CPDLC and ADS equipped aircraft should show outside of radar coverage. I've no idea why it's so hit and miss. I do know that there are a lot of hamfisted pilots who are seemingly incapable of inputting their FPL callsign correctly so they're unable to log-on as there's a mismatch. I regularly see the messages in the system "to fix a FANS problem, log off and re-log on to CZQX/EGGX" for example. If the pilot still can't figure out the problem then they'll be requested to make voice reports and so you won't see any satellite tracking, only a short blip at 40W, 30W, 20W etc.
I use CPDLC most days at work and it’s definitely not “ham fisted pilots” that are the problem. Log on capability varies around the world and some areas like the Indian Ocean it’s pretty tempermental with log on success some months being about 50% so we have to use HF. Even logging on across the Atlantic isn’t always successful. The call sign is taken from the FMC or FMGC. usually so if you put in the incorrect call sign it would get highlighted when you first asked for a Clearance at your departure airport.
We often have to log on or re log on and the reasons are numerous, for my aircraft the log on errors are often to do with latency and other technical problems with the coms or ground station.
aeropilot said:
No, air-air refuelling systems are not compatible. The USAF uses fixed boom system, which is why Mildenhall is full of KC-135 tankers....which can be seen on ADS-B Exhange.
Thanks for the reply, yes I’d seen the KC135s up too but as they seemed to alternate in the A2A areas it seemed they were cross training / refuelling.. So presumably not all Typhoons broadcast (otherwise the Voyager must get lonely) and the UK F35s never seem to broadcast at all.Edited by Dashnine on Thursday 23 April 12:55
Lemming Train said:
ADSBx is a good resource but it's essentially an amateur's "geek" project being run from a bedroom and I highly doubt it will ever reach a position where it would be a threat to the commercial sites like FR24 and Radarbox.
Really interesting stuff.I use for FR24 at work all the time to see What’s going on with the aircraft I’m taking home when down route or if I operate into or out of an airport I haven’t been to for a while I just use the historic features to see what happens with the arrivals and departures as often they’re different from the standard published procedures. It’s a pretty valuable tool and I’ve paid for the pro versions since they started.
I only use adsbX for spotting the military stuff or maybe police helicopters etc. The whole user experience is very different to FR24.
I used to subscribe to 360radar but it’s too U.K. centric and the coverage isn’t much (if any) better than ADSBx now. Plus 360radar only works on certain browsers etc.
I don’t really get that ADSBx and 369radar all seem to have similar UI? We’re they designed by the same person?
What if love to see is military (and interesting) on fr24 but I suppose that once you become as big fr24 you attract too much attention and then get more requests from individuals (or governments) etc to hide their data.
Dashnine said:
Thanks for the reply, yes I’d seen the KC135s up too but as they seemed to alternate in the A2A areas it seemed they were cross training / refuelling.. So presumably not all Typhoons broadcast (otherwise the Voyager must get lonely) and the UK F35s never seem to broadcast at all.
Yeah I’ve never seen f35s you see typhoons and f16s some models of f15s, tornadoes it’s all a bit hit and miss and must depend on a few variables.Edited by Dashnine on Thursday 23 April 12:55
El stovey said:
I use CPDLC most days at work and it’s definitely not “ham fisted pilots” that are the problem. Log on capability varies around the world and some areas like the Indian Ocean it’s pretty tempermental with log on success some months being about 50% so we have to use HF.
Even logging on across the Atlantic isn’t always successful. The call sign is taken from the FMC or FMGC. usually so if you put in the incorrect call sign it would get highlighted when you first asked for a Clearance at your departure airport.
We often have to log on or re log on and the reasons are numerous, for my aircraft the log on errors are often to do with latency and other technical problems with the coms or ground station.
I thought you were driving 737s from one of your older posts? You must be driving something bigger now if you're going to India? How do you find Mumbai on HF? Even logging on across the Atlantic isn’t always successful. The call sign is taken from the FMC or FMGC. usually so if you put in the incorrect call sign it would get highlighted when you first asked for a Clearance at your departure airport.
We often have to log on or re log on and the reasons are numerous, for my aircraft the log on errors are often to do with latency and other technical problems with the coms or ground station.
From my own past experience in the right hand seat most of the time they simply ignore you on 8879 or tell you that you're too weak and send you to 6661 or 10018. You call there and get the same response "you are very very weak, come on 8879!". If you're not CPDLC you just end up on a wild goose chase trying to get them to answer and work you. CPDLC they love as they don't have to do anything other than send your SELCAL and then go back to sleep. I don't know if you go beyond India but Kolkata are even worse - they just don't answer the radio at all!The FMC input errors seem to happen quite frequently. Listening out on the wireless after a SELCAL check can often find Gander or Shanwick asking a flight to recycle with their correct FPL callsign as they'll be logged on as UPS076 instead of UPS76 as filed, for example.
As you say, there's all sorts of inexplicable reasons why CPDLC fails to connect or disconnects after a successful log on, and I'm guessing this could be the reason why the sat coverage drops from FR24, but a guess is all I can proffer as I'm not clued up on the technicalities.
Edited by Lemming Train on Thursday 23 April 14:07
Edited by Lemming Train on Thursday 23 April 14:29
El stovey said:
Really interesting stuff.
I use for FR24 at work all the time to see What’s going on with the aircraft I’m taking home when down route or if I operate into or out of an airport I haven’t been to for a while I just use the historic features to see what happens with the arrivals and departures as often they’re different from the standard published procedures. It’s a pretty valuable tool and I’ve paid for the pro versions since they started.
I only use adsbX for spotting the military stuff or maybe police helicopters etc. The whole user experience is very different to FR24.
I used to subscribe to 360radar but it’s too U.K. centric and the coverage isn’t much (if any) better than ADSBx now. Plus 360radar only works on certain browsers etc.
I don’t really get that ADSBx and 369radar all seem to have similar UI? We’re they designed by the same person?
What if love to see is military (and interesting) on fr24 but I suppose that once you become as big fr24 you attract too much attention and then get more requests from individuals (or governments) etc to hide their data.
I've never used 360radar as it's a closed shop unless you subscribe. I've just taken a look at the screenshots on their site and I'm pretty sure that's on the VRS (virtual radar server) platform from looking at the location of their configuration buttons. As it seems to be UK centric then they probably won't suffer the scalability issues that ADSBx has (had) with worldwide coverage. I did read on another forum that they have better UK coverage than ADSBx, especially out in East Anglia where MLAT fighter tracks are much smoother due to a higher number of feeders in the area vs the zigzag tracks you often see on other sites with poor coverage, but I've not checked it for myself.I use for FR24 at work all the time to see What’s going on with the aircraft I’m taking home when down route or if I operate into or out of an airport I haven’t been to for a while I just use the historic features to see what happens with the arrivals and departures as often they’re different from the standard published procedures. It’s a pretty valuable tool and I’ve paid for the pro versions since they started.
I only use adsbX for spotting the military stuff or maybe police helicopters etc. The whole user experience is very different to FR24.
I used to subscribe to 360radar but it’s too U.K. centric and the coverage isn’t much (if any) better than ADSBx now. Plus 360radar only works on certain browsers etc.
I don’t really get that ADSBx and 369radar all seem to have similar UI? We’re they designed by the same person?
What if love to see is military (and interesting) on fr24 but I suppose that once you become as big fr24 you attract too much attention and then get more requests from individuals (or governments) etc to hide their data.
FR24 is useless for military and bizzers. They have entire hex ranges blocked by detault so they don't even show on the map. All the UK mil is in the 43C hex range and with the exception of a few and some miscoders, they are all blocked. Same for the US mil - they have the entire AE hex range blocked. Some USAF T38 Talons will show up as the early ones are in the ADF block but that's all. For other countries, it is possible for me to sneak them into the database via a back door and they usually stay undetected by the site owner unless someone draws attention to them, but it's a fight in a losing battle really.
There's an ever increasing amount of planes using dynamic hex codes now too which isn't good. Eg. pretty much all of the US Navy P8s are using dynamic "tactical" hex codes (same as German military) which aren't fixed to a set frame so there's no way of IDing them beyond their aicraft type. They used to have fixed hex codes but now they're using dynamic codes in the AE66, 67, 68 range and don't even file any meaningful callsign either, often just show as 00000000. Can't even ID them from their filed FPL through Eurocontrol as they file "REG/ON FILE"
.The FAA launched their PIA program last year (Privacy ICAO address - details here: https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/privacy/) and went live at the start of this year. Essentially it's a dynamic hex code "service" for primarily US bizjet owners and performs the same function as the Navy P8 example above, hiding the plane's true identity. However, we are 4 months into the year and there has not been any evidence of them in use yet! It's worth noting that if such a system were to be rolled out across the globe, it would be the death knell to virtually all flight tracking websites.
ETA: just to add to that last sentence, FR24 has been moaning about this for years, blaming ADSBx's attitude of leaving all bizzers and military stuff visible as the reason why the military are increasingly moving towards using dynamic hex codes, also the reason for the FAA PIA program. In fairness, their argument has merit.
Edited by Lemming Train on Thursday 23 April 14:03
Lemming Train said:
El stovey said:
I use CPDLC most days at work and it’s definitely not “ham fisted pilots” that are the problem. Log on capability varies around the world and some areas like the Indian Ocean it’s pretty tempermental with log on success some months being about 50% so we have to use HF.
Even logging on across the Atlantic isn’t always successful. The call sign is taken from the FMC or FMGC. usually so if you put in the incorrect call sign it would get highlighted when you first asked for a Clearance at your departure airport.
We often have to log on or re log on and the reasons are numerous, for my aircraft the log on errors are often to do with latency and other technical problems with the coms or ground station.
I thought you were driving 737s from one of your older posts? You must be driving something bigger now if you're going to India? How do you find Mumbai on HF? Even logging on across the Atlantic isn’t always successful. The call sign is taken from the FMC or FMGC. usually so if you put in the incorrect call sign it would get highlighted when you first asked for a Clearance at your departure airport.
We often have to log on or re log on and the reasons are numerous, for my aircraft the log on errors are often to do with latency and other technical problems with the coms or ground station.
From my own past experience in the right hand seat most of the time they simply ignore you on 8879 or tell you that you're too weak and send you to 6661 or 10018. You call there and get the same response "you are very very weak, come on 8879!". If you're not CPDLC you just end up on a wild goose chase trying to get them to answer and work you. CPDLC they love as they don't have to do anything other than send your SELCAL and then go back to sleep. I don't know if you go beyond India but Kolkata are even worse - they just don't answer the radio at all!The FMC input errors seem to happen quite frequently. Listening out on the wireless after a SELCAL check can often find Gander or Shanwick asking a flight to recycle with their correct FPL callsign as they'll be logged on as UPS076 instead of UPS76 as filed, for example.
As you say, there's all sorts of inexplicable reasons why CPDLC fails to connect or disconnects after a successful log on, and I'm guessing this could be the reason why the sat coverage drops from FR24, but a guess is all I can proffer as I'm not clued up on the technicalities.
nothing’s changed, HF is to be avoided at all costs. I’d log on with cpdlc 10 times and reset the whole system thing to avoid it. Crew even are planning duties and breaks etc so they’re in the bunk during any potential segment of HF with Mumbai. I agree about farther east too, Kolkata are worse and Yangon are also difficult. Still on balance I think they’re better than some of the African ones. Shouty voice “MUMBI MUMBAI MUMBAI THIS IS PISTONHEADS 123 CALLING MUMBAI on 1234” crackle hiss hiss crackle
(Heavy Indian accent but barely readable) “Pistonheads 123 you are very week try 5678 or cpdlc logon’ hiss hiss crackle sound hiss
MUMBAI RADIO (gets stepped on by Qatar 012) “THIS IS PISTONHEADS 123 CALLING MUMBAI on 5678
(Heavy Indian accent) “Pistonheads 123 you are very week barely readable try again on 1234 or CPDLC” hiss crackle
We do have a satphone now so if you’re in Africa you can call up the tower if you can’t get CPDLC or HF. I spoke to a man in Mogadishu once who seemed glad of a chat. I expect he was actually on a pirate ship or something rather than an actual control tower,
Are you not flying any more? Or did you stop long haul for a promotion or something? I’m obviously not flying too much at the moment myself
El stovey said:
nothing’s changed, HF is to be avoided at all costs. I’d log on with cpdlc 10 times and reset the whole system thing to avoid it. Crew even are planning duties and breaks etc so they’re in the bunk during any potential segment of HF with Mumbai. I agree about farther east too, Kolkata are worse and Yangon are also difficult. Still on balance I think they’re better than some of the African ones. Shouty voice “MUMBI MUMBAI MUMBAI THIS IS PISTONHEADS 123 CALLING MUMBAI on 1234” crackle hiss hiss crackle
(Heavy Indian accent but barely readable) “Pistonheads 123 you are very week try 5678 or cpdlc logon’ hiss hiss crackle sound hiss
MUMBAI RADIO (gets stepped on by Qatar 012) “THIS IS PISTONHEADS 123 CALLING MUMBAI on 5678
(Heavy Indian accent) “Pistonheads 123 you are very week barely readable try again on 1234 or CPDLC” hiss crackle
We do have a satphone now so if you’re in Africa you can call up the tower if you can’t get CPDLC or HF. I spoke to a man in Mogadishu once who seemed glad of a chat. I expect he was actually on a pirate ship or something rather than an actual control tower,
Are you not flying any more? Or did you stop long haul for a promotion or something? I’m obviously not flying too much at the moment myself
We got to the point where we wouldn't even bother calling at RASKI on the FIR bdy out of Muscat, or coming the other way on L301 out of Mumbai at KARKU, just get the CPDLC logged on ASAP and send the ARP through the link and forget about the SELCAL check! So long as we had a good log-on Mumbai doesn't care for anything else, same as Kolkata. Another thing we quickly learnt was to get desired FLs in whilst still in VHF contact as you've zero chance of getting a climb once out over the ocean - you're staying at whatever FL you entered with until you exit the other end back into VHF.No longer flying. Long haul was causing family issues. Went short-haul, did my head in. Came out, turned a hobby into a reasonable money-spinner and also have my HGV ticket which I utilise for some extra funds and I enjoy the driving. Earning less than half I was on before, but the quality of life went up tenfold. It's not always about the money!
Lemming Train said:
From my own past experience in the right hand seat most of the time they simply ignore you on 8879 or tell you that you're too weak and send you to 6661 or 10018. You call there and get the same response "you are very very weak, come on 8879!".
8879.....mmm..... I know that number! Used to work HF a long time ago. Bombay and Madras back in those days....They used to blow our stuff to bits...… was convinced they were sat on top of nuclear powered transmitters. .
El stovey said:
I use CPDLC most days at work and it’s definitely not “ham fisted pilots” that are the problem. Log on capability varies around the world and some areas like the Indian Ocean it’s pretty tempermental with log on success some months being about 50% so we have to use HF.
I use CPDLC most days at work in the Indian Ocean! But you'd have to be east of the Maldives and South of Sri Lanka. One provider we deal with has difficulty ending service, ie they keep their Datalink (CPDLC) connection. Involves asking the aircraft on HF to disconnect and then logon to the new one which can sometimes take 20 minutes to sort out.
Some logging on problems can be the callsigns, sometimes they might use their IATA code. I know another neighbouring provider needs zeros added to the callsigns.
As well as the difficulties above, you mentioned latency, do see that a bit with B77L passenger aircraft for some reason, especially the "AS Roma" and "Arsenal" ones.
Not all the providers computers talk to each other which probably exacerbates the issue.
Sorry, off topic for the spotters.
Lemming Train said:
Earning less than half I was on before, but the quality of life went up tenfold. It's not always about the money!
Glad to hear it! I know another pilot who does HGV driving .I think she suffered from the toxic cabin bleed air on the HS 146. She loves it too. Might be a lot of pilots retraining if the covid thing goes on too long tbh. It’s all hold onto the cash at the moment but after a few months the cash will start to run out and other measures might be necessary.
motomk said:
I use CPDLC most days at work in the Indian Ocean! But you'd have to be east of the Maldives and South of Sri Lanka.
One provider we deal with has difficulty ending service, ie they keep their Datalink (CPDLC) connection. Involves asking the aircraft on HF to disconnect and then logon to the new one which can sometimes take 20 minutes to sort out.
It was rare I got down that far but Colombo on 11285 were always spot on - a stark contrast to the utter shambles with Mumbai. The change-over to Brisbane at the boundary never a problem either. Log off from VCCF and log on to YBBB (?) off the top of my head.One provider we deal with has difficulty ending service, ie they keep their Datalink (CPDLC) connection. Involves asking the aircraft on HF to disconnect and then logon to the new one which can sometimes take 20 minutes to sort out.
El stovey said:
Glad to hear it! I know another pilot who does HGV driving .I think she suffered from the toxic cabin bleed air on the HS 146. She loves it too.
Might be a lot of pilots retraining if the covid thing goes on too long tbh. It’s all hold onto the cash at the moment but after a few months the cash will start to run out and other measures might be necessary.
Might be a lot of pilots retraining if the covid thing goes on too long tbh. It’s all hold onto the cash at the moment but after a few months the cash will start to run out and other measures might be necessary.
I guess you're doing pax then and not a freight dog? I've got a little money coming in from my hobby stuff and hex code contract as mentioned above, but there's absolutely nothing on the agency driving side, completely dead. Luckily the missus is still working with her business so we can ride it out for probably 6 months, but the lockdown needs to end sooner rather than later for a huge number of people. I feel for you if you're on pax hauling, there's going to be a lot of operators not surviving this and a lot of lay-offs. It's going to be decimated for years to come .
YBBB if you come over Bali.Lots of stuff up at the minute. Couple of US Hercs flying quite close, then RAF Herc, A400 & C17 all took off from Brize Norton in a short space of time. An Apache zig zagging over Salisbury Plain, couple of AWACs were floating about, handful of Belgian and US F16s over Germany and Belgian
Sure its nothing unusual but interesting to see so much going on
Sure its nothing unusual but interesting to see so much going on
ecsrobin said:
Lemming Train said:
I don't know if you're aware but it's not your typical 4 blade helicopter rotor design that you immediately think of for a drone. It's an actual conventional style fixed wing aircraft that requires a runway. Video of it in action here, landing at 3:07 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWrzciw-JKw
That's the exact same model as G-TEKV.
Another video of it : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrFJGk6orgs
As an operator you can have your aircraft removed from FR24 but it may still show on other systems. That's the exact same model as G-TEKV.
Another video of it : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrFJGk6orgs
Scabutz said:
Lots of stuff up at the minute. Couple of US Hercs flying quite close, then RAF Herc, A400 & C17 all took off from Brize Norton in a short space of time. An Apache zig zagging over Salisbury Plain, couple of AWACs were floating about, handful of Belgian and US F16s over Germany and Belgian
Sure its nothing unusual but interesting to see so much going on
Spotted an A400 this morning doing stuff between IoM/ScotlandSure its nothing unusual but interesting to see so much going on
Scabutz said:
Lots of stuff up at the minute. Couple of US Hercs flying quite close, then RAF Herc, A400 & C17 all took off from Brize Norton in a short space of time. An Apache zig zagging over Salisbury Plain, couple of AWACs were floating about, handful of Belgian and US F16s over Germany and Belgian
Sure its nothing unusual but interesting to see so much going on
The Brize Norton Facebook page posts what the C130, A400 and C17 are up to, usually training approaches down to about 250 feet for 6-8 times at the unusually empty civilian airports around the country. Not Cv-19 related, honest.Sure its nothing unusual but interesting to see so much going on
Although not sure why, is it to get used to somewhere different, different systems, approach angles, etc. as to the layman isn’t one runway much like another? That’s an invitation for an explanation....
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