British Leyland -They were crap and they knew they were.

[excel monkey]

mph1977 said:

the 400 nearly managed to pull off the class above in the same way that the 3 series pulls it off - but avoiding the awkward questions from those who would actually use the full capacity of the car.

Nearly pulled it off? I don't think it came close. The pricing was outrageously ambitious when it launched. I seem to remember that even the entry level 414Si was priced the same as a 1.6 Cavalier or Mondeo. If Rover had offered "smaller car but more kit and/or more engine" that might have worked.

Even the AR fansite gives a pretty damning review, calling it "obscenely overpriced". Given how much success they'd had with the previous R8 model, it's really sad that they screwed this up so badly.

http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/facts-and-figures/...

[mph1977]

excel monkey said:

mph1977 said:

the 400 nearly managed to pull off the class above in the same way that the 3 series pulls it off - but avoiding the awkward questions from those who would actually use the full capacity of the car.

Nearly pulled it off? I don't think it came close. The pricing was outrageously ambitious when it launched. I seem to remember that even the entry level 414Si was priced the same as a 1.6 Cavalier or Mondeo. If Rover had offered "smaller car but more kit and/or more engine" that might have worked.

Even the AR fansite gives a pretty damning review, calling it "obscenely overpriced". Given how much success they'd had with the previous R8 model, it's really sad that they screwed this up so badly.

http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/facts-and-figures/...

does one really consider this kind of thing is relevant to the Hyacinth Bucket's of this world?

[MGJohn]

yonex said:

MGJohn said:

Yet another posting from yonex brim full of informative and enlightening content! There's no end to it.

Give up? Never say die yonex... Yes, give up and throw the towel in like many of your mindset.

Any bluddy wonder ?... chap.

Quite honestly I have no idea what the hell you are going on about. My mindset is one of an engineer, having started as a toolmaker when I was 16 up until now where I part own a reasonably decent manufacturing company based here in the UK. Your pathetic rants are consistent and despite the fact that you have a fair amount of knowledge about 'stuff' you sit there and roll out condescending and in part ludicrous statements about Rover whilst trying to bully anyone else who happens to have a contrary opinion. When this fails a load of ridiculous throw away one liners which to be frank, don't really show you in the best light. Its tragic quite honestly and whilst I respect the fact that you repair and improve certain facets of your own vehicles judging you purely on the merits of your internet postings I have to say you're a bit odd. In my past I have commissioned multiple projects for Rover/Martin Baker/Nissan/MOD so please keep your BS character assessments to yourself. FWIW I cannot believe you could possibly be this antagonistic in real life.

FWIW, that is exactly how I feel about all your contrary postings where I have expressed opinions, not just on this thread, but on others.

I have opinions, you have opinions.

Accusing someone of one liners shows the quality of your quantity assessment skills and other judgements. You aint perfect by a massive margin.

[SteveinTurkey]

excel monkey said:

mph1977 said:

the 400 nearly managed to pull off the class above in the same way that the 3 series pulls it off - but avoiding the awkward questions from those who would actually use the full capacity of the car.

Nearly pulled it off? I don't think it came close. The pricing was outrageously ambitious when it launched. I seem to remember that even the entry level 414Si was priced the same as a 1.6 Cavalier or Mondeo. If Rover had offered "smaller car but more kit and/or more engine" that might have worked.

Even the AR fansite gives a pretty damning review, calling it "obscenely overpriced". Given how much success they'd had with the previous R8 model, it's really sad that they screwed this up so badly.

http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/facts-and-figures/...

I cannot argue about the price of the 200 and 400s but I can about the cars I drove. I drove several of the 200 and 400s in the late 90s as company pool cars. The best was the 420 GSi, which was always referred to as "the fast Rover" and sure enough it was pretty fast and enjoyable at the time. But it quite often was in the workshop due to head gasket or some other problems. The 200s were always quite good and would pull from exceptionally low rpm.

[Plastic chicken]

DBSV8 said:

Plastic chicken said:

The intro & the outro featured Stratford Johns (Z-Cars, Softly Softly etc), who also narrated. Most, if not all of the speaking parts were played by actors, including Trevor Bannister (Are you Being Served?), Trevor Eve (Shoestring etc), Michael Robbins (On the Buses), Madeline Smith (anything involving eye candy) & Kenny Lynch (anything involving a token black person).

Yes, the build-quality of Leyland cars was abysmal, but 'Buy British' was the theme of the day, and that's what we did. Before effective rust-proofing, the main car-killer was tin-worm, and all makes suffered from that, surely?

Leyland could also be credited with several innovations, the Mini being the obvious one, but also the Maxi - possibly the first proper hatchback.

pendant mode : your mistaking stratford johns ( sitting down ) with frank windsor

and tony adams with trevor eve

Yep, you're absolutely right; I stand corrected.

[Noesph]

Good watch, and its still true today. I work in a machine shop and the amount of dodge drawings, bad copies, wrong specs and drawings that just don't make sense (holes bigger than the part itself, and some with a mix of imperial and metric sizes on) that customers send is pretty madding, and the time wasted sorting things out.

I do have a climax forklift (silly name I know) exactly the same as the one 15 minutes in though, still works a treat too.

[MGJohn]

Noesph said:

Good watch, and its still true today. I work in a machine shop and the amount of dodge drawings, bad copies, wrong specs and drawings that just don't make sense (holes bigger than the part itself, and some with a mix of imperial and metric sizes on) that customers send is pretty madding, and the time wasted sorting things out.

I do have a climax forklift (silly name I know) exactly the same as the one 15 minutes in though, still works a treat too.

You work in a machine shop actually creating things. Bad luck, anything really creative is hugely undervalued in the UK. Get yourself a white collar job and put your feet up whilst raking it in.

Coventry Climax... A real Blast from the past!

[drivin_me_nuts]

MGJohn said:

Noesph said:

Good watch, and its still true today. I work in a machine shop and the amount of dodge drawings, bad copies, wrong specs and drawings that just don't make sense (holes bigger than the part itself, and some with a mix of imperial and metric sizes on) that customers send is pretty madding, and the time wasted sorting things out.

I do have a climax forklift (silly name I know) exactly the same as the one 15 minutes in though, still works a treat too.

You work in a machine shop actually creating things. Bad luck, anything really creative is hugely undervalued in the UK. Get yourself a white collar job and put your feet up whilst raking it in.

Coventry Climax... A real Blast from the past!

I wonder how long ago it is you actually had a job or if you have any appreciation of how hard a great many 'white collar' people work to sustain a reasonable lifestyle. It might be a shock to you, but there is life outside the Socialist Worker's archaic view of 'us' and 'them'.

[Dave200]

drivin_me_nuts said:

MGJohn said:

Noesph said:

Good watch, and its still true today. I work in a machine shop and the amount of dodge drawings, bad copies, wrong specs and drawings that just don't make sense (holes bigger than the part itself, and some with a mix of imperial and metric sizes on) that customers send is pretty madding, and the time wasted sorting things out.

I do have a climax forklift (silly name I know) exactly the same as the one 15 minutes in though, still works a treat too.

You work in a machine shop actually creating things. Bad luck, anything really creative is hugely undervalued in the UK. Get yourself a white collar job and put your feet up whilst raking it in.

Coventry Climax... A real Blast from the past!

I wonder how long ago it is you actually had a job or if you have any appreciation of how hard a great many 'white collar' people work to sustain a reasonable lifestyle. It might be a shock to you, but there is life outside the Socialist Worker's archaic view of 'us' and 'them'.

Leave him. You're on a BL thread - he's a lost cause...

[anonymous-user]

MGJohn said:

You work in a machine shop actually creating things. Bad luck, anything really creative is hugely undervalued in the UK. Get yourself a white collar job and put your feet up whilst raking it in.

Coventry Climax... A real Blast from the past!

Yes we're just terrible at creating things in the UK, staff are so undervalued....



'If you don't believe in what you do nobody else will'....



Still he only sold a few records and did a 'bit of white collar stuff'

[heebeegeetee]

yonex said:

Yes we're just terrible at creating things in the UK, staff are so undervalued....



'If you don't believe in what you do nobody else will'....



Still he only sold a few records and did a 'bit of white collar stuff'

In fairness, nobody there has made much impact on our daily lives.

In Richard Branson's case he's made no difference to the way public transport operates nor to how we buy or appreciate music, unlike say, some people from California have.

[anonymous-user]

heebeegeetee said:

In fairness, nobody there has made much impact on our daily lives.

In Richard Branson's case he's made no difference to the way public transport operates nor to how we buy or appreciate music, unlike say, some people from California have.

F1 hasn't made a difference to your daily life, i'd say it had in the respect of what has filtered into your daily drive from racing. Also strictly relating to engineering terms the point of quoting both Red Bull and Mr B was that they have both achieved at the highest level. As for Apple, yes they changed the way people organize music but for the good of the industry, debatable.

Back on topic take a look here. I can assure you several hundred businesses and the people that work in them would probably disagree with you. Look, it's this toxic, dour and down right miserable outlook from you know who that I just don't accept. We are a nation of innovators and whilst we might not make run of the mill products like we used to do when you look at the pinnacle of engineering we are still genuinely world class.

[bgunn]

yonex said:

Back on topic take a look here. I can assure you several hundred businesses and the people that work in them would probably disagree with you. Look, it's this toxic, dour and down right miserable outlook from you know who that I just don't accept. We are a nation of innovators and whilst we might not make run of the mill products like we used to do when you look at the pinnacle of engineering we are still genuinely world class.

Hear, hear.

All very well bemoaning the 'white collar' worker, but when you ARE (or were) one?

[Noesph]

Dave200 said:

drivin_me_nuts said:

MGJohn said:

Noesph said:

Good watch, and its still true today. I work in a machine shop and the amount of dodge drawings, bad copies, wrong specs and drawings that just don't make sense (holes bigger than the part itself, and some with a mix of imperial and metric sizes on) that customers send is pretty madding, and the time wasted sorting things out.

I do have a climax forklift (silly name I know) exactly the same as the one 15 minutes in though, still works a treat too.

You work in a machine shop actually creating things. Bad luck, anything really creative is hugely undervalued in the UK. Get yourself a white collar job and put your feet up whilst raking it in.

Coventry Climax... A real Blast from the past!

I wonder how long ago it is you actually had a job or if you have any appreciation of how hard a great many 'white collar' people work to sustain a reasonable lifestyle. It might be a shock to you, but there is life outside the Socialist Worker's archaic view of 'us' and 'them'.

Leave him. You're on a BL thread - he's a lost cause...

Ha, there is no them and us where I work, we are all the one company. I'm friends with teachers, accountants, businessmen etc outside of work, I don't think the whole them and us thing really exists so much anymore.

I know the money isn't great in engineering, but I do like my job which means a lot. Plus I think I would find it hard to sit behind a desk all day long.

[Devil2575]

Noesph said:

Ha, there is no them and us where I work, we are all the one company. I'm friends with teachers, accountants, businessmen etc outside of work, I don't think the whole them and us thing really exists so much anymore.

I know the money isn't great in engineering, but I do like my job which means a lot.

Depends what you mean by engineering?

Most of what a lot of actual engineers do is sitting behind a desk. Chemical, mechanical, civil etc.

[anonymous-user]

Devil2575 said:

Depends what you mean by engineering?

Most of what a lot of actual engineers do is sitting behind a desk. Chemical, mechanical, civil etc.

Exactly. Some engineers run CAD stations, some are in analysis, development, R&D and some are purely hands on commissioning. This attitude of 'them and us' was heavily entrenched in the 70's mentality when those that worked on the shop floor had serious issues with anyone in a shirt and tie. The days are gone when you had to know your way around a machine shop to be called an engineer and those that still have this mindset are seriously deluded.

[heebeegeetee]

yonex said:

Back on topic take a look here. I can assure you several hundred businesses and the people that work in them would probably disagree with you. Look, it's this toxic, dour and down right miserable outlook from you know who that I just don't accept.

if you're referring to MG John, he's the one being shot down because he is simply relating the positive experiences he's had with his cars.

We don't need to talk about Motorsport British or otherwise - I'm a lifelong fan of motorsport but it's not an industry that changes the world, transports the world or employs millions of people.

The British motor industry is building lots of cars and employing lots of people. The cars are being built by people living in the same geographical areas as before, in factories that very often are old and sprawling relics of the past industry.

However we don't want to talk about Honda at Swindon, or Toyota in Burnaston, or BMW at Hams hall or Nissan in Washington, all us car enthusiasts ever want to talk about is British bloody Leyland and the 'demise' of the British motor industry.

But likewise in the media, we never want to celebrate the countless men and women beavering away in factories all over the uk developing ever more stuff and problem solving for the motor industry. These people go completely unmentioned and we never read about them in the media, unless one of them has murdered somebody or appeared on X-Factor.

It's a shame but I don't see us Brits changing much any time soon.

[rumple]

I seem to remember that the Marina was a makeshift car until they had something better, the Maxi had to have an extensive facelift owing to poor development, the allegro being smaller inside that its predecessors leading to a hurried facelift, also having a very compromised look owing to lack of funds for a new drive train ( the mini gearbox under the engine was shoehorned in )which completely changed the look of the car again owing to poor development, the Princess and Allegro not having the Hatch they badly needed because it 'detracted from the Maxi's unique selling point, they didn't need the unions, the management did enough damage, the main stream cars just weren't developed properly, each replacement vehicle didn't sell as well as the previous meaning the replacement weren't as well developed... well you know the rest.

Have I mentioned the unions, outdated production facilities, over manned factories, poor quality components, artificially strong pound, oh never mind, the truth is they made some good products but on the whole they were a piss poor outfit that didn't deserve success.

[Neonblau]

rumple said:

the Maxi had to have an extensive facelift owing to poor development,

Back in the day my dad ran company cars, always BMC/BL, covering probably 40,000 miles pa. He was due to get a new Maxi but left for another company and got a Mk 2 1600 Cortina instead. His erstwhile colleague got the Maxi, one of the first I belive, and everything, but everything went wrong on that car, from seat mechanisms, the speedo, transmission and a whole bunch of other stuff. Our Cortina ran the three years we had it without missing a beat. Every other car my Dad drove/owned after that was a Ford and BL was never considered. I'm sure that's pretty typical of most BL customers at the time - whether it was Ford, VW, Datsun, Toyota - once the customer left they were never coming back.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

Neonblau said:

I'm sure that's pretty typical of most BL customers at the time - whether it was Ford, VW, Datsun, Toyota - once the customer left they were never coming back.

Absolutely right. My uncle was a BL man thru and thru, until the mid 70s, when after his 3rd or 4th nightmare Austin on the trot, he bought a Datsun 180B. He loved it, and it was faultless. Never went back to BL again. A selection of datsun / Nissans, including a few SSS models, a 240K GT and a 280ZX. Whe he died 30 yrs later he had a Micra.