Minimum standard of living for the less well off.

[Tired]

Drumroll said:

A working directive that he and many others opt out of. As working "all the hours god sends" is the only way he can make enough money to live on. Clearly some people don't understand the problems many families face.

If that's really the case, who's to blame for the situation he's found himself in?

Perhaps some people don't. I know what it means to be poor. My Dad was a truck mechanic, my mum was a childminder, until my Dad died when I was still in school. I have 2 brothers and a sister.

I've been part of that family you describe. So I worked my arse off.

[Tired]

Red 4 said:

A quick google suggests a hospital porter will start on £12,500.

Experienced porter £16,000.

I expect a porter would be thankful for overtime.

I'm ex-Police (amongst other things), seeing as you are asking.

Binmen get paid more than that. Maybe he needs to look for a new line of work, with more money and less hours. While he's there, perhaps they'll teach him to drive HGVs, that's a useful skill.

The defeatist attitude of some people here is depressing. You can always make a change.

[Integroo]

Tired said:

Binmen get paid more than that. Maybe he needs to look for a new line of work, with more money and less hours. While he's there, perhaps they'll teach him to drive HGVs, that's a useful skill.

Not according to Google they don't.

[andy_s]

Tired said:

Binmen get paid more than that. Maybe he needs to look for a new line of work, with more money and less hours. While he's there, perhaps they'll teach him to drive HGVs, that's a useful skill.

The defeatist attitude of some people here is depressing. You can always make a change.

You can certainly always try to make a change.

[GT03ROB]

Integroo said:

GT03ROB said:

Red 4 said:

The question was, given those circumstances, how does he better himself ?

Oh yeah ... Just enroll in med school. Dead easy

Just as there may be few people who are actually screwing the system....there are few people that achieve a level of wealth without making sacrifices. Many would not make those sacrifices irrespective of their situations/intellect or whatever.

Do you ever to stop to consider that perhaps the hospital porter doesn't have the innate ability to become a brain surgeon, never mind how hard he works?

Yes. Hence my comment "irrespective of their situations/intellect".

I could not be a brain surgeon no matter what I did. i could not be a professional footballer again no matter what i did.

[Tired]

Integroo said:

Not according to Google they don't.

I googled "binman salary" and clicked on the glassdoors link.

£15k-21k is what it says, but that's for Glasgow City Council, so perhaps it know where I'm searching from and provides results accordingly.

Anyway, other professions are available.

[markcoznottz]

wc98 said:

Johnnytheboy said:

...and he'll be the first to get promoted when a shift leader/supervisor post comes up, while the 5-a-day people stand round moaning about how they never get a pay rise.

alternatively he will never get promoted and the useless lazy bd that only makes 5 gets promoted due to being related to the boss, plus the department head wants rid of him as he knows someone else that can make 30 a day as well he would like to start. this means he can hit the performance targets for his sector easily, increasing his bonus and useless tt is now in a management role where he can do little harm.

apply this across many uk industries and it is not hard to see why we are so utterly, utterly ste at managing anything in this country.

Ask anyone who has worked for a large company in the uk, and almost without exception, 'my boss is useless'. Etc. Or 'There's an old guy at my place that does fk all but the management say nothing'. Is it any wonder people give up. The harder you work the less you are thought of.

[Red 4]

Tired said:

Binmen get paid more than that. Maybe he needs to look for a new line of work, with more money and less hours. While he's there, perhaps they'll teach him to drive HGVs, that's a useful skill.

The defeatist attitude of some people here is depressing. You can always make a change.

It's got nothing to do with being defeatist.

It has everything to do with the realities of some people's lives and how tough things are for some people.

[Tired]

Red 4 said:

It's got nothing to do with being defeatist.

It has everything to do with the realities of some people's lives and how tough things are for some people.

You appear to be suggesting (and I'm happy to be corrected) that this imaginery hospital porter we're discussing cannot possibly do anything to better his life. He's absolutely stuck, a slave to his family and finances.

That's awfully defeatist. There are always options for those that want them enough.

[andy_s]

If everyone worked harder and got a better job, [which seems to ignore the nature, principles and problems intrinsic to competitiveness, hierarchy, structure, capitalism and egalitarianism] who would flip your burgers...?

[Tired]

andy_s said:

If everyone worked harder and got a better job, [which seems to ignore the nature, principles and problems intrinsic to competitiveness, hierarchy, structure, capitalism and egalitarianism] who would flip your burgers...?

Not everyone is interested in working harder though, are they?

But the beauty of capitalism is that you can, if you want. And you can reap the rewards of doing so.

What's the alternative? That everyone is where they are, and nothing can change?

[GT03ROB]

andy_s said:

If everyone worked harder and got a better job, [which seems to ignore the nature, principles and problems intrinsic to competitiveness, hierarchy, structure, capitalism and egalitarianism] who would flip your burgers...?

I would in my retirement!

[andy_s]

Tired said:

andy_s said:

If everyone worked harder and got a better job, [which seems to ignore the nature, principles and problems intrinsic to competitiveness, hierarchy, structure, capitalism and egalitarianism] who would flip your burgers...?

Not everyone is interested in working harder though, are they?

But the beauty of capitalism is that you can, if you want. And you can reap the rewards of doing so.

What's the alternative? That everyone is where they are, and nothing can change?

Everyone can't change, some can; this is the point...

[Tired]

andy_s said:

Everone can't change, some can; this is the point...

Anyone can change, not everyone. That is my point.

[randlemarcus]

andy_s said:

Tired said:

andy_s said:

If everyone worked harder and got a better job, [which seems to ignore the nature, principles and problems intrinsic to competitiveness, hierarchy, structure, capitalism and egalitarianism] who would flip your burgers...?

Not everyone is interested in working harder though, are they?

But the beauty of capitalism is that you can, if you want. And you can reap the rewards of doing so.

What's the alternative? That everyone is where they are, and nothing can change?

Everone can't change, some can; this is the point...

So whats your solution to that? Waynetta gets a crack at Vodafone CEO for six months? Life isn't fair, get over it.

[andy_s]

Tired said:

andy_s said:

Everone can't change, some can; this is the point...

Anyone can change, not everyone. That is my point.

So what do we do with those that can't or won't? It seems we tell them to 'work harder', and round we go.

[andy_s]

randlemarcus said:

So whats your solution to that? Waynetta gets a crack at Vodafone CEO for six months? Life isn't fair, get over it.

I'm not judging, I'm just injecting a bit of reality.

[anonymous-user]

Rovinghawk said:

There are lots of jobs out there- industry is crying out for decent people, many of whom need only be semi-skilled to earn good money.

Unfortunately some of those vacancies require effort or unpleasant working conditions which some people don't want to involve themselves with.

So picture this: You are earning £120k, have a nice home, £2500 mortgage, couple of cars and life is going well. Then, in your late 40s you are made redundant following an economic downturn. You get statutory redundancy and nothing else. No problem, you have 6m savings for this situation. Except 12m later you are still looking. You cannot get a job stacking shelves as it won’t touch the sides and you need to look for a job that will pay the bills. You’ve maxed all your credit cards trying to make ends meet, sold the cars by the house won’t sell and now the bank has repossessed it.

So your “get on your bike” Norman Tebbit rubbish is no way helpful to most people who are faced with a scenario like this.

I’ve changed the numbers but I’ve faced a scenario similar to this at least twice in my career. That’s why I save as much as I can and don’t use credit.

[98elise]

Drumroll said:

Tired said:

A hospital porter will (currently) be subject to european working time directives, so they won't regularly be working more than 48 hours a week, so not quite .

A working directive that he and many others opt out of. As working "all the hours god sends" is the only way he can make enough money to live on. Clearly some people don't understand the problems many families face.

I still don't get why it's so hard. After I left the forces I was a maintenance engineer. It was low paid but there was overtime. The age range of engineers was early 20's to those close to retirement. We all earnt about the same.

I worked my way up to supervisor, then manager in the same company. I then changed jobs and ran a region. I took a huge interest in the IT tools at my disposal and was soon head hunted into the IT department. There I took every piece of training open to me both professional and technical. I've changed companies many times and never pass up an opportunity to learn something. I now earn many multiples of the average wage. I've done 60 hour weeks, shift work, and jobs that have a 2+ hour commute each way.

I have no doubt some of my peers from my early engineering days are still in overalls turning spanners for a living.

The hospital porter can do similar. You don't give up work and aim to be a brain surgeon. You just look to what you can do better next

Edited by 98elise on Thursday 7th February 19:25

[Tired]

andy_s said:

So what do we do with those that can't or won't? It seems we tell them to 'work harder', and round we go.

Nothing?

If people want help, give them it.

If they don't, don't.