Bernie Ecclestone ?
Discussion
When people loftily talk about he facilities at newer circuits - usally aping what Ecclestone is b
hing about this week- they refer to the never never land of the paddock club which is inaccessble to nearly all of us. Silverstone is just fine- always has been a mediocre track to spectate at but great atmosphere and huge heritage. Ecclestone sold the sport down the river - we all know that - the emphasis is solely on generating income from regimes prepared to stump up gazillions in order to stage a GP which they feel will improve their status. Few, if any, of the countries have any motorsport heritage or involvement - and the countries which have this are repeatedly screwed by BCE and his equity partners. We make nearly all of the world's GP cars- and we get one race which we have to fight for . With Italy and Germany we have the world's most knowledgeable and committed race fans - we get three GPs if we are lucky . The French held the first ever GP - 1906 I think- and have produced many great drivers- they struggle even to get a race. But any tinpot middle eastern joke of a state, awash with oil cash and with no motorsport history gets its own race at another bland Tilkedrome. Go figure, because I'm fked if I can....
hing about this week- they refer to the never never land of the paddock club which is inaccessble to nearly all of us. Silverstone is just fine- always has been a mediocre track to spectate at but great atmosphere and huge heritage. Ecclestone sold the sport down the river - we all know that - the emphasis is solely on generating income from regimes prepared to stump up gazillions in order to stage a GP which they feel will improve their status. Few, if any, of the countries have any motorsport heritage or involvement - and the countries which have this are repeatedly screwed by BCE and his equity partners. We make nearly all of the world's GP cars- and we get one race which we have to fight for . With Italy and Germany we have the world's most knowledgeable and committed race fans - we get three GPs if we are lucky . The French held the first ever GP - 1906 I think- and have produced many great drivers- they struggle even to get a race. But any tinpot middle eastern joke of a state, awash with oil cash and with no motorsport history gets its own race at another bland Tilkedrome. Go figure, because I'm fked if I can....Rich_W said:
The main problem for Silverstone for years and years was the owners BRDC...
It is true that the BRDC own the Freehold of Silverstone.Silverstone Circuits Limited is a separate company and is not the BRDC.
Bernie owning Silverstone is about the worst possible option for British Motorsport.
It not a question of Bernie = Sinner, BRDC = Saints. Far from it, but you do need to understand a lot more about how everything is structured and who is responsible for what before pointing fingers. Both have their plus and minus points but they are not the only two players in the game.
chevronb37 said:
I was at Silverstone on Saturday. There were the following activities ongoing simultaneously:
Westfields in the car parks
4x4s on the off road course
Experience events on the Stowe layout
Britcar on the International layout
BRSCC clubbie on the National layout
It's a remarkable place, all things considered. If the Porsche Centre had been open that would've been six different activities. . .
It was when I drove past it on my way to the International Pits - cars where certainly on their small test circuit there. As you say a great motorsport facility Westfields in the car parks
4x4s on the off road course
Experience events on the Stowe layout
Britcar on the International layout
BRSCC clubbie on the National layout
It's a remarkable place, all things considered. If the Porsche Centre had been open that would've been six different activities. . .
Keithyboy said:
chevronb37 said:
I was at Silverstone on Saturday. There were the following activities ongoing simultaneously:
Westfields in the car parks
4x4s on the off road course
Experience events on the Stowe layout
Britcar on the International layout
BRSCC clubbie on the National layout
It's a remarkable place, all things considered. If the Porsche Centre had been open that would've been six different activities. . .
It was when I drove past it on my way to the International Pits - cars where certainly on their small test circuit there. As you say a great motorsport facility Westfields in the car parks
4x4s on the off road course
Experience events on the Stowe layout
Britcar on the International layout
BRSCC clubbie on the National layout
It's a remarkable place, all things considered. If the Porsche Centre had been open that would've been six different activities. . .
For its faults, watching fast cars at Silverstone is life-affirming. I defy anybody to stand at the entrance to Maggotts, watching truly fast cars, and not get goosebumps. It's mesmerising and extraordinary.
Rude-boy said:
Bernie owning Silverstone is about the worst possible option for British Motorsport.
Why? He's hardly going to bulldoze it and turn it into a massive estate of new build houses is he. What the place needs is financial security and a healthy gate receipt. If a Billioniare owner doesn't give you that what can?He's also unlikley to make it so expensive to either attend or hold races there that BTCC or BSB or Britcar choose not to go there. You don't have to like him, but he knows how to turn a profit.
On a related note. Has anyone seen his daughters Playboy pics? In summary. Yep.
Edited by Rich_W on Friday 17th May 22:29
Rich_W said:
On a related note. Has anyone seen his daughters Playboy pics? In summary. Yep.
She's certainly inherited her mother's looks. Thank the lord god almighty that she doesn't look like the old man!!!Edited by Rich_W on Friday 17th May 22:29
Is it me, or with his mop top hair getting longer, does he look more like a grey haired version of "Cousin It" from the Addams family?
Rich_W said:
Why? He's hardly going to bulldoze it and turn it into a massive estate of new build houses is he. What the place needs is financial security and a healthy gate receipt. If a Billioniare owner doesn't give you that what can?
He's also unlikley to make it so expensive to either attend or hold races there that BTCC or BSB or Britcar choose not to go there. You don't have to like him, but he knows how to turn a profit.
On a related note. Has anyone seen his daughters Playboy pics? In summary. Yep.
He certainly does know how to turn a profit; and very little of that is ever renivested into the sport. He has become grotesquely rich from a sport which many of us feel he should never have gained control of in the way he did. He has no motivation now other than to make money- he used to be a racer but he lost that passion when Rindt died I think. I would not trust him to run the local speedway track let alone Silverstone. He's also unlikley to make it so expensive to either attend or hold races there that BTCC or BSB or Britcar choose not to go there. You don't have to like him, but he knows how to turn a profit.
On a related note. Has anyone seen his daughters Playboy pics? In summary. Yep.
Edited by Rich_W on Friday 17th May 22:29
coppice said:
He certainly does know how to turn a profit; and very little of that is ever renivested into the sport.
Payments to keep certain teams on the grid last year not counting?coppice said:
He has become grotesquely rich from a sport which many of us feel he should never have gained control of in the way he did.
Took over with full suport of the teams. Made Ron, Frank et al VERY rich. Saw that TV was the future before others and and did many deals that continue to benefit the teams. So remind me who the "many of us" are and why we should be up in arms? I hear Alan Sugar/Peter Jones/Richard Branson also do ok at business.coppice said:
He has no motivation now other than to make money
err business man makes money for his employers shocker. Gonna bet you make money for your employer too. How could you!!!coppice said:
he used to be a racer but he lost that passion when Rindt died I think.
Death tends to change many people in differing ways. I'd argue he's still got that racers kill instinct just puts it into work rather than the track.coppice said:
I would not trust him to run the local speedway track let alone Silverstone.
Why? No one ever answers this, they just assume it would be a bad thing because they don't like him. Concrete reasons please. 
Concrete reasons? How about prostituting the sport to states like Bahrain at the expense of the heartland of GP racing - Europe. How about making himself a billionaire out of a sport he gained control of when many of us think it should never have been for sale? Or pricing GP attendance beyond most people ? Or making a GP paddock totally inaccessible to anybody who wasn't a member of the ridiculous Paddock Club? Or let's think about pressuring the UK government to spend millions of taxpayers money on Silverstone access and then again threatening to remove GP ? And am not sure why making Ronzo and Sir Frank rich beyind the dreams of avarice is a good thing- but even then most of the money from GPs goes to the people who Ecclestone flogged the sport to- not sure I see the benefit in that to anybody unless one believes that all profit is good profit.
And breathe ...
And breathe ...
coppice said:
Concrete reasons? How about prostituting the sport to states like Bahrain at the expense of the heartland of GP racing - Europe.
Last I heard it was a WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP. And given that these new markets tend to buy a lot of Mercedes, Renaults, Ferraris, Hondas, BMWs etc why wouldn't you expect the sport to go to these places. Why do you think the manufacturers pay all that money? You think it should always be like 1950 where there was 7 races all in Europe apart from one in America? (and even that was the Indy 500) coppice said:
How about making himself a billionaire out of a sport he gained control of when many of us think it should never have been for sale?
You keep saying that. But there's not "many of us". There's just people that don't like it when someone does well or exploits the rules to gain a financial advantage. If you'd been in the EXACT same position. You'd have done the same thing. Ultimately it's just jealousy. If he'd done everything the same, but only ever become worth £10M you wouldn't care.coppice said:
Or pricing GP attendance beyond most people ?
bks quite frankly.Adult
4 day pass at Melbourne is $149Aus = £96
3 Day at Silverstone is £165
3 day at Singapore is £155 ($298Singapore)
3 day at Austin (varies) by starts at $198 = £130
Hardly extortionate. For a once a year thing. Nearly everybody in this forum could afford that.
coppice said:
Or making a GP paddock totally inaccessible to anybody who wasn't a member of the ridiculous Paddock Club?
Big spenders want to be kept special. If they aren't getting privaleged access. Why would they want to spend Millions on advertising? FY~I if you want to get into the Paddock club it's circa £2K upwards. Again there's a sizeable percentage of people in this fourm that can and do afford that. I can't but I don't begrudge others who can.coppice said:
Or let's think about pressuring the UK government to spend millions of taxpayers money on Silverstone access and then again threatening to remove GP ?
The old access road into Silverstone was a fking joke. And now it's brilliant. One of the few things the previous government did right. Apart from Silverstone of course it also benefitted everyone who lived in the area. If Bernie threatening to remove the race was required. Then I consider the ends justifying the means.coppice said:
And am not sure why making Ronzo and Sir Frank rich beyind the dreams of avarice is a good thing-
Would you prefer they went bankrupt and stopped racing? I thought you hankered after the old days? How would you feel about no McLaren or Williams on the grid?coppice said:
but even then most of the money from GPs goes to the people who Ecclestone flogged the sport to- not sure I see the benefit in that to anybody unless one believes that all profit is good profit.
And breathe ...
CVC means stability for the series. Means stability for the teams and manufacturers and keeps thousands of people employed. And breathe ...
I notice you've swerved my question about why you don't think Bernie could run Silverstone better than the current incumbents?
It seems to me that all the people that hate Bernie would prefer the sort to be how it was in the 60s and 70s. No budgets, no live TV every other sunday. No major coverage in the papers. Sort of how BTCC is nowadays. Hardly anyone watches. The coverage is on ITV4. There's next to no money sloshing around the sport and it suffers every few years when one of the teams think "that'll do for now" and pull out. And you end up with priovateers running last years cars on a shoestring.
But hey, you can get in for £32 for a 3 day pass and even get in the pitlane.
No intention to swerve , just got bored of ranting I guess. He's created a global brand, made lots of people rich, created legions of fanboy TV watchers which some will see as a good thing. I don't , mainly becuase nearly all of the cash in motor sport now goes to one series . BCE running Silverstone- doubtless he'd make gazillions , piss lots of people off in the process. But ..err..it's not his circuit to own is it ?
Rich_W said:
coppice said:
He certainly does know how to turn a profit; and very little of that is ever renivested into the sport.
Payments to keep certain teams on the grid last year not counting?coppice said:
He has become grotesquely rich from a sport which many of us feel he should never have gained control of in the way he did.
Took over with full suport of the teams. Made Ron, Frank et al VERY rich. Saw that TV was the future before others and and did many deals that continue to benefit the teams. So remind me who the "many of us" are and why we should be up in arms? I hear Alan Sugar/Peter Jones/Richard Branson also do ok at business.I'm not sure why you think the 'payments' to certain teams is so great. Ecclestone cannot afford to have the grid shrink massively. He had to do something and taking a little less from the smaller teams is more or less a no-brainer. If they are not there, he earns nothing.
coppice said:
How about making himself a billionaire out of a sport he gained control of when many of us think it should never have been for sale?
You keep saying that. But there's not "many of us". There's just people that don't like it when someone does well or exploits the rules to gain a financial advantage. If you'd been in the EXACT same position. You'd have done the same thing. Ultimately it's just jealousy. If he'd done everything the same, but only ever become worth £10M you wouldn't care.Coppice is probably (excuse me if I've misread your post) referring to the way Ecclestone got the TV rights. He paid £300m for something later valued, less than a year I seem to remember, at £1.5bn. Or that might be dollars. Further, no money now goes to the FIA. It is all Ecclestone's. Whilst Coppice is right in that many of us think it should not have been for sale, many more believe that at the price, it was a give-away.
You criticised Silverstone for poor access. If, perhaps, they made much money out of the GP they would have done it a lot sooner.
There is no doubt that Ecclestone has a genius for making money. I for one don't envy him: my imagination can't cope with that amount of money. However, I disagree with those who seem to suggest that his influence on the sport has been for the good. Technology has given the same advantages to all sports, including football, rugby union, the Olympics and more. There is no reason to believe that these same improvements would not have filtered through to F1 had Ecclestone stuck with selling motorcycles in the East End.
Not really no-it's fine if TV televises an event which is popular. But then the sport becomes so reliant on TV that the medium exerts more and more influence on the sport and eventually makes it entirely a TV spectacle for TV viewers. My view is a minority and few will agree and I will also plead guilty to snobbery and elitism - but live motorsport cannot be successfully portayed by any medium with the possible exception of the written word.
coppice said:
Not really no-it's fine if TV televises an event which is popular. But then the sport becomes so reliant on TV that the medium exerts more and more influence on the sport and eventually makes it entirely a TV spectacle for TV viewers. My view is a minority and few will agree and I will also plead guilty to snobbery and elitism - but live motorsport cannot be successfully portayed by any medium with the possible exception of the written word.
Therein lies the problem. TV dictates the format. Refueling, pitstops etc were encouraged because they made for good TV. The hour and a half duration was to satisfy TV demands. Le Mans makes dreadful TV but a top class event. The reason support was withdrawn from WSC and WRC was the lack of TV interest. So it hurts the enthusiast. Derek Smith said:
There is no doubt that Ecclestone has a genius for making money. I for one don't envy him: my imagination can't cope with that amount of money. However, I disagree with those who seem to suggest that his influence on the sport has been for the good. Technology has given the same advantages to all sports, including football, rugby union, the Olympics and more. There is no reason to believe that these same improvements would not have filtered through to F1 had Ecclestone stuck with selling motorcycles in the East End.
There is no doubt that Bernie is good at making money, and I think it is difficult to disagree that his influence on the sport has been beneficial and it has been beneficial to a number of parties. However the one party that has not done well is the fan who wants to visit a race or to an extent any race.The issue is that Bernie takes too much money out of the sport. If the circuits kept a greater share of income from the race weekend(be it part of the trackside advertising, tv income etc) then they could have invested in better facilities earlier, they could have invested in attracting other seies to their circuits etc.
The other issue is that as a race fan you get so little for your entry fee these days. There used to be a day of racing now you are lucky if there is one supporting race..
Chrisgr31 said:
The other issue is that as a race fan you get so little for your entry fee these days. There used to be a day of racing now you are lucky if there is one supporting race..
Indeed. My first GP at Brands in '82 had Formula Fords, BTCC, F3, a proper Air Display with a Concorde fly past, etc.That was then though. Things, sadly change.
£145 for general admission to Silverstone this year sounds excessive but it is about the same for any major sporting - or entertainment - event these days
£140 for Champions League Final for example and they only play one match! If I was so inclined to go see Fleetwood Mac, i have options on tickets ranging from £118 upto to £1,099
Rude-boy said:
On the other hand for Euro85 you can have 24 hours of racing, as many support races as an F1 event (nearly!) and eat all the cheese you can cope with for a week.
Lest ye forget, Bernie killed Group C with rude demands for silly money for the TV rights...Le Sarthe is good, but not a patch on pre-93...
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