Right to Repair
Discussion
julian64 said:
Murph7355 said:
In the BMW example above they do. At £1,000. A small %age of the original value/cost of the vehicle I suspect.
So how do you legislate that they must make the sealed unit repairable? What level of granularity if needed/acceptable?
Not sure if you're serious. What percentage is £1000 of a standard three series BMW at four five six or even ten years old?So how do you legislate that they must make the sealed unit repairable? What level of granularity if needed/acceptable?
how about F30 where the one replacement after a stone through the lens would be 20% of the whole cost of the car
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...
Have a think about the waste involved of the cost of producing that car and then throwing it away for the sake of a stone going through headlight lens.
Do you think that's reasonable?
You cannot expect a manufacturer to base their parts prices on the potential future value of their products second hand.
I had to replace the door/drum seal on a Zanussi washer a couple of years ago. Looked at the vids. Oh yeah, just pop off the front panel and away you go. Except on my model the front panel was bolted down behind the ballast in the floor, so the only feasible access was through the door. Took 2 of us best part of half a day to do it and we're both pretty competent DIYers. When is went again last year we replaced it. First thing we looked at was repair vids to make sure we bought one where the front panel comes off!
For bearings/brushes, yeah OK. For a door seal, a high wear part that will need periodic replacement - madness.
For bearings/brushes, yeah OK. For a door seal, a high wear part that will need periodic replacement - madness.
98elise said:
Part of the problem is ludicrous pricing of spares. I had a dishwasher that failed after 2 years. The guy that came out to fix it said the element had blown, but taken the control board with it. The control board was about 80% of the replacing the whole dishwasher so it was binned.
Electronic components are cheap so a small circuit board should not be 100's to purchase.
I have a new Neff dishwasher arriving on Friday for this very reason. Control board died. Over £200 for part. Would have happily repaired it but not at half the price of a new dish washer.Electronic components are cheap so a small circuit board should not be 100's to purchase.
The old one had lasted 16 years with a couple of minor repairs so I'm not complaining too much! Fingers crossed the new one does the same.
GadgeS3C said:
98elise said:
Part of the problem is ludicrous pricing of spares. I had a dishwasher that failed after 2 years. The guy that came out to fix it said the element had blown, but taken the control board with it. The control board was about 80% of the replacing the whole dishwasher so it was binned.
Electronic components are cheap so a small circuit board should not be 100's to purchase.
I have a new Neff dishwasher arriving on Friday for this very reason. Control board died. Over £200 for part. Would have happily repaired it but not at half the price of a new dish washer.Electronic components are cheap so a small circuit board should not be 100's to purchase.
The old one had lasted 16 years with a couple of minor repairs so I'm not complaining too much! Fingers crossed the new one does the same.
Should an iPad Pro glass screen cost 700 notes to repair. No it bloody shouldnt
Dr Doofenshmirtz said:
They're a bit late to the party on this one - most blokes (and women I guess) can't replace a wiper blade, let alone actually fix anything. As Men, most have become pathetic choosing to spend their spare time riding bicycles or going to the gym because it's fashionable, rather than fixing stuff.
And bikes never get punctures or go wrong at night in freezing conditions.Bloody pansies, mincing around fixing washing machines in a nice warm kitchen!
frisbee said:
And bikes never get punctures or go wrong at night in freezing conditions.
Bloody pansies, mincing around fixing washing machines in a nice warm kitchen!
Rather than insisting that manufacturers hold parts for a certain period why not just pass a law that says that if a company stop making a part they have to release the specs so other smaller companies can make them under license with a small amount going to the original manufacturer. The added advantage to this is that companies would use parts for longer rather than having to give the manufacturing away...Bloody pansies, mincing around fixing washing machines in a nice warm kitchen!
AJL308 said:
996owner said:
Just need to force manufactures to keep stock of parts and force them to sell to 3rd party repair centres.
In my last job we threw away 2 brand new LG TVs damaged in transit. I rang for a replacement panel £450/panel, the TV was only £379. madness.
I just fixed a door entry system (2 failed capacitors on the power supply) £7.00 The security company who "maintain it, but couldn't fix it" then demanded we replaced the unit (£900) or they would no longer honour the contract.
We had to fix it very quickly because half the building couldn't be accessed and a replacement controller couldn't easily be sourced for weeks.
Fixing analogue audio gear can make good money if you have the skill.
I got an old Marantz amp (2250b) I bought of ebay restored by a local guy - stripped, cleaned, parts replaced, installation of a new 3d printed bulb housing. Top job. He charged 500 quid! Good money if you're that way inclined.In my last job we threw away 2 brand new LG TVs damaged in transit. I rang for a replacement panel £450/panel, the TV was only £379. madness.
I just fixed a door entry system (2 failed capacitors on the power supply) £7.00 The security company who "maintain it, but couldn't fix it" then demanded we replaced the unit (£900) or they would no longer honour the contract.
We had to fix it very quickly because half the building couldn't be accessed and a replacement controller couldn't easily be sourced for weeks.
Fixing analogue audio gear can make good money if you have the skill.
It was made in 1974 so I haven't inflicted the horror of a few more grammes of Co2 on the planter by buying a new one.
I gave the job up when it turned into a board swapping exercise and the skilled aspect died a death, which bored me silly. It simply didn't pay anymore to repair to component level. This was in the late 80's, early 90's.
I cant see the job returning, its simply far too expensive compared to mass produced electronics. The odd specialist i can see the demand for of course, but not on any scale, even with a change in law for the design of items.
I now earn a living building historic racing cars, almost everything is bespoke manufactured, which obviously makes them very expensive compared to the modern throw away car. Even modern racing cars are pretty much off the shelf mass produced items under the skin, compared to the older kit i work with.
The days of the repairable item are over, bar the very cheap wear items like motors and pumps, which should be made easy to change, it's just too expensive to pay a skilled person to fault find.
Murph7355 said:
julian64 said:
Murph7355 said:
In the BMW example above they do. At £1,000. A small %age of the original value/cost of the vehicle I suspect.
So how do you legislate that they must make the sealed unit repairable? What level of granularity if needed/acceptable?
Not sure if you're serious. What percentage is £1000 of a standard three series BMW at four five six or even ten years old?So how do you legislate that they must make the sealed unit repairable? What level of granularity if needed/acceptable?
how about F30 where the one replacement after a stone through the lens would be 20% of the whole cost of the car
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...
Have a think about the waste involved of the cost of producing that car and then throwing it away for the sake of a stone going through headlight lens.
Do you think that's reasonable?
You cannot expect a manufacturer to base their parts prices on the potential future value of their products second hand.
Burwood said:
...
Should an iPad Pro glass screen cost 700 notes to repair. No it bloody shouldnt
Legislation is not required to resolve this problem in a market economy though. The most effective, longer term route to change is for the market to reject things that "shouldn't" happen (presumably you're in electronics design and can think of alternative ways of doing an iPad Pro that retain all the positive qualities but ensure it can be replaced down to the smallest diode? Should an iPad Pro glass screen cost 700 notes to repair. No it bloody shouldnt
).I'm against government regulation unless it is categorically necessary. It's rarely well executed and nearly always results in unintended consequences as a result. The market should be able to sort itself.
If we're seriously worried about the environment (I'm against waste generally, for common sense reasons rather than eco-warrior ones) then alternative governmental approaches might be better employed...but again, how to do that without unintended consequences is the important bit.
2gins said:
frisbee said:
And bikes never get punctures or go wrong at night in freezing conditions.
Bloody pansies, mincing around fixing washing machines in a nice warm kitchen!
You're doing it wrong, you do know the leather runs smooth on the passenger seat?Bloody pansies, mincing around fixing washing machines in a nice warm kitchen!
GadgeS3C said:
98elise said:
Part of the problem is ludicrous pricing of spares. I had a dishwasher that failed after 2 years. The guy that came out to fix it said the element had blown, but taken the control board with it. The control board was about 80% of the replacing the whole dishwasher so it was binned.
Electronic components are cheap so a small circuit board should not be 100's to purchase.
I have a new Neff dishwasher arriving on Friday for this very reason. Control board died. Over £200 for part. Would have happily repaired it but not at half the price of a new dish washer.Electronic components are cheap so a small circuit board should not be 100's to purchase.
The old one had lasted 16 years with a couple of minor repairs so I'm not complaining too much! Fingers crossed the new one does the same.
Been repairing things since the 80's and with the internet, spares are sooo much easier and cheaper to get than they have ever been (but £200 for a part on a £400 machine is stupid)
Gary C said:
GadgeS3C said:
98elise said:
Part of the problem is ludicrous pricing of spares. I had a dishwasher that failed after 2 years. The guy that came out to fix it said the element had blown, but taken the control board with it. The control board was about 80% of the replacing the whole dishwasher so it was binned.
Electronic components are cheap so a small circuit board should not be 100's to purchase.
I have a new Neff dishwasher arriving on Friday for this very reason. Control board died. Over £200 for part. Would have happily repaired it but not at half the price of a new dish washer.Electronic components are cheap so a small circuit board should not be 100's to purchase.
The old one had lasted 16 years with a couple of minor repairs so I'm not complaining too much! Fingers crossed the new one does the same.
Been repairing things since the 80's and with the internet, spares are sooo much easier and cheaper to get than they have ever been (but £200 for a part on a £400 machine is stupid)
I see this all the time with vacuum cleaners.
A Hoover Junior that was last turned on in 1995, last sericed in 1982 will run fine, a quick re-grease of the motor bearings, and new brushroll bearings and a belt will see it last another 20 years.
Whereas I'll have customers abandoning their Dyson DC24 because the cost to stick a new suction motor, brushroll motor and PCB is £120, the £120 is me making about £30 for a few nights work...
Miele only sell the motor assembly as a whole for £130ish. I learnt to re-flow the solder joints on the motor PCB which gets them running again usually.
A Hoover Junior that was last turned on in 1995, last sericed in 1982 will run fine, a quick re-grease of the motor bearings, and new brushroll bearings and a belt will see it last another 20 years.
Whereas I'll have customers abandoning their Dyson DC24 because the cost to stick a new suction motor, brushroll motor and PCB is £120, the £120 is me making about £30 for a few nights work...
Miele only sell the motor assembly as a whole for £130ish. I learnt to re-flow the solder joints on the motor PCB which gets them running again usually.
As an engineer I don't think people understand the realities;
1. Compare your MGB headlight to your BMW, the MGB is dim, you won't be able to safely drive it on a modern road (especially with a younger driver used to modern lights). Hermetically sealing the unit is one of the big factors, you cannot have both.
2. Things are very complex and highly integrated, how do you plan on changing a chip fitted by a robot on your ECU, you won't even be able to see the contacts with the naked eye let alone place it and solder it.
3. A modern washing machine spins at 1800rpm to get out as much water as possible to lower drying energy, can you imagine the forces it encounters vs the donkey Miele that runs at 600rpm?? How do you plan on aligning the bearings, what happens when an incorrectly fitted bearing fails explosively?
4. People talk about a land rover, lets be frank, they don't sell them anymore as they are rubbish. Zero modern crash safety, unreliable and not needed for 99.99% (I do like them btw) Your modern Audi 4x4 starts on the button and wafts you in silence in the urban jungle. The tolerances are not even imaginable. The land rover is for flintstone and the modern 4x4 is for your city types.
5. Iphones are not repairable for obvious reasons, they are aimed at people who don't need or want to. They just need an excuse to upgrade. If you want to change the battery on your iPhone, then think, you are buying the wrong product, buy an old nokia 3310 and Psion PDA oh and an AA map.
This simply will not work. Who is liable when a DIY repaired fridge catches fire and a tower block burns down to ashes with its occupants when the DIY repaired fire sensors and smoke detectors don't work when the DIY repaired alarm cable that connects the fire panel didn't work. And the DIY repaired fire door lock failed to release?
1. Compare your MGB headlight to your BMW, the MGB is dim, you won't be able to safely drive it on a modern road (especially with a younger driver used to modern lights). Hermetically sealing the unit is one of the big factors, you cannot have both.
2. Things are very complex and highly integrated, how do you plan on changing a chip fitted by a robot on your ECU, you won't even be able to see the contacts with the naked eye let alone place it and solder it.
3. A modern washing machine spins at 1800rpm to get out as much water as possible to lower drying energy, can you imagine the forces it encounters vs the donkey Miele that runs at 600rpm?? How do you plan on aligning the bearings, what happens when an incorrectly fitted bearing fails explosively?
4. People talk about a land rover, lets be frank, they don't sell them anymore as they are rubbish. Zero modern crash safety, unreliable and not needed for 99.99% (I do like them btw) Your modern Audi 4x4 starts on the button and wafts you in silence in the urban jungle. The tolerances are not even imaginable. The land rover is for flintstone and the modern 4x4 is for your city types.
5. Iphones are not repairable for obvious reasons, they are aimed at people who don't need or want to. They just need an excuse to upgrade. If you want to change the battery on your iPhone, then think, you are buying the wrong product, buy an old nokia 3310 and Psion PDA oh and an AA map.
This simply will not work. Who is liable when a DIY repaired fridge catches fire and a tower block burns down to ashes with its occupants when the DIY repaired fire sensors and smoke detectors don't work when the DIY repaired alarm cable that connects the fire panel didn't work. And the DIY repaired fire door lock failed to release?
I used to work in a university estates department. We used to have a resident electrician in the halls of residence. If you went in his lock up, you would find a pile of Dualit toasters, which is what they had in all the kitchens. If one broke, he would take one from the pile to the kitchen and return with the broken one, repair it, and put it on the repaired pile to replace the next one.
They were an absolute doddle to fix; a few easily removable screws on the base, and the internals were nothing more than a selector switch for the number of slices, a simple time switch, and elements that slide in and out with ease.
I was at a former colleagues house a while back, and noticed a Dualit toaster that looked quite snazzy, but clearly wasn't new. He had brought it home from work, stripped it, cleaned it, and his wife had painted a design on to the parts of the panel that were previously covered with enamel.
He told me they are throwing loads of the things away every week because it is less expensive to buy cheap ones and throw them away than it is to pay a skilled man to repair them.
I complimented him on them, and said people would probably pay good money for them. He simply grinned, opened the pantry door, where I saw about 10 - 15 more, all painted in various designs, ready to be packaged up and sold!
They were an absolute doddle to fix; a few easily removable screws on the base, and the internals were nothing more than a selector switch for the number of slices, a simple time switch, and elements that slide in and out with ease.
I was at a former colleagues house a while back, and noticed a Dualit toaster that looked quite snazzy, but clearly wasn't new. He had brought it home from work, stripped it, cleaned it, and his wife had painted a design on to the parts of the panel that were previously covered with enamel.
He told me they are throwing loads of the things away every week because it is less expensive to buy cheap ones and throw them away than it is to pay a skilled man to repair them.
I complimented him on them, and said people would probably pay good money for them. He simply grinned, opened the pantry door, where I saw about 10 - 15 more, all painted in various designs, ready to be packaged up and sold!
DozyGit said:
As an engineer I don't think people understand the realities;
2. Things are very complex and highly integrated, how do you plan on changing a chip fitted by a robot on your ECU, you won't even be able to see the contacts with the naked eye let alone place it and solder it.
5. Iphones are not repairable for obvious reasons, they are aimed at people who don't need or want to. They just need an excuse to upgrade. If you want to change the battery on your iPhone, then think, you are buying the wrong product, buy an old nokia 3310 and Psion PDA oh and an AA map.
This simply will not work. Who is liable when a DIY repaired fridge catches fire and a tower block burns down to ashes with its occupants when the DIY repaired fire sensors and smoke detectors don't work when the DIY repaired alarm cable that connects the fire panel didn't work. And the DIY repaired fire door lock failed to release?
I wondered when the blame culture would venture into this topic. (no dig at you DozyGit and you point it out correctly :-) ) This is what I suspect the manufacturers will play on to stop them being forced to sell spares. But there again what about home mechanic who still fix their own cars..2. Things are very complex and highly integrated, how do you plan on changing a chip fitted by a robot on your ECU, you won't even be able to see the contacts with the naked eye let alone place it and solder it.
5. Iphones are not repairable for obvious reasons, they are aimed at people who don't need or want to. They just need an excuse to upgrade. If you want to change the battery on your iPhone, then think, you are buying the wrong product, buy an old nokia 3310 and Psion PDA oh and an AA map.
This simply will not work. Who is liable when a DIY repaired fridge catches fire and a tower block burns down to ashes with its occupants when the DIY repaired fire sensors and smoke detectors don't work when the DIY repaired alarm cable that connects the fire panel didn't work. And the DIY repaired fire door lock failed to release?
With regards to changing components on boards I agree those days are numbered if not all but gone.. Sell the whole board as a spare then? Why should I throw away a working item when it can be fixed just because a connector is loose on the board and needs re soldering?
My 2 lads had to replace their Xbox controllers because the headphone jack stopped working. They both stopped working at the same time (very odd) They failed after a software update that couldn't be reversed. Microsoft knew of this issue but said tuff buy new controllers at £50 each. Utter waste.
I have swapped batteries on iPhone a few times. Why replace a phone when a battery kit is £20? Apple use to swap batteries and screens on iphones until they started boding them together.
I have fixed my cd changer in my old BMW e39, discs could not be read, changed the optical pickup (£30) worked fine for many years.
I miss my workshop bench days, don't miss getting burned by a soldering iron thou.
Edited by 996owner on Thursday 10th January 16:35
Burwood said:
GadgeS3C said:
98elise said:
Part of the problem is ludicrous pricing of spares. I had a dishwasher that failed after 2 years. The guy that came out to fix it said the element had blown, but taken the control board with it. The control board was about 80% of the replacing the whole dishwasher so it was binned.
Electronic components are cheap so a small circuit board should not be 100's to purchase.
I have a new Neff dishwasher arriving on Friday for this very reason. Control board died. Over £200 for part. Would have happily repaired it but not at half the price of a new dish washer.Electronic components are cheap so a small circuit board should not be 100's to purchase.
The old one had lasted 16 years with a couple of minor repairs so I'm not complaining too much! Fingers crossed the new one does the same.
Should an iPad Pro glass screen cost 700 notes to repair. No it bloody shouldnt
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