Bean to Cup Coffee machine for a complete novice \ starter
Discussion
juggsy said:
Venisonpie said:
Sounds really good, so long as it operates at 9 bar it will be fine. I'd love to know how the auto grinders work given the huge variables at play - do they specify an optimum shot mass/brew duration? Or do you program that to suit your preference.
Maybe I should start retailing them!
It weighs the output whilst timing it, it has built in scales for both the grind and the shot, and stops extraction when the target output weight is reached. You then manually adjust the grind if the shot pulls too slow/fast. It uses a RFID system on certain packs of beans to suggest settings, but I ve never used it as I ve never bought from a coffee company they partner with that has this. It also uses PID control.Maybe I should start retailing them!
dickymint said:
I'm keen to knowt what machine/s are you using and how do they deal with all this?
OK, as promised a summary of how we set up and why plus the kit we use - lets start with the latter. We have a Mazzer commercial grinder that has manually adjustable burrs and a digitally timed grind duration - no mass sensor (it's quite old). The coffee machine a La Marzocco dual station, twin boiler.Output - the key thing with coffee is to be sure about what you want the output to be, in our case (we're an excellent coffee shop but not a specialist coffee shop) we want an excellent flavour, consistently delivered in a commercial environment that supports all of the sold products. The same shot will be used in an Espresso right over to fully stretched milk offerings including umpteen different milks and syrups.
How to achieve this - we work with the importer/roaster who specialises in providing beans for this purpose and has created a blend to deliver accordingly - it is not single origin since different beans deliver different characteristics. The blend is designed to deliver consistency and universal quality and is also our best seller for beans used in domestic machines (we also offer a range of single origin beans/grinds and can take orders for just about anything).
The roaster will advise us (following extensive in-house research) how best to optimise flavour extraction from the blend which in this case in a 21 gram grind that brews for 30-35 seconds under 9 bar pressure with water at 94c. Anything below 30 seconds and the coffee will be sour and watery, anything beyond 35 seconds and it starts to become bitter.
The first and easiest part is setting up the coffee machine, we check the water temperature and pressure are correct and flush both stations to ensure a clean start in the morning and verify the pressure and temp is holding (pressure will be just over 9 bar when not in use and drops to exactly 9 bar in use). It always does as we service it regularly but it's the first part in the sequence meaning anything we now do with the brewing is not down to these potential variables.
Now the grind - firstly the hopper needs to be kept topped up ensuring a mean pressure from above into the feed with beans at room temp. We store in the basement and all beans are brought up the night before to ensure aclimatisation for the next day. We then waste 2 shots to flush though residue in the grinder and test weigh a fresh grind - if its not 21 gms we artificially add/ remove extra (no adjustment made to the grinder at this stage) and run 3 test brews per station. This then tells us if we're in the window for extraction (30-35 secs). If we are then we can leave the grind setting but adjust the duration to hit 21gms should it be needed. If we're running fast we dial the grind size down/slow grind size up and re test as before. Once we're in the window double check the mass with a test weight and adjust accordingly.
What now happens is the equipment all starts to heat up with use and the machine will likely go out of tolerance so we repeat the process as and when needed based on shot duration (anything outside of the 30-35 window is wasted). Once we're at mean operating temp with the machinary, being busy it remains steady throughout the morning but will need a recalibrate later in the day as demand drops off and the temps all reduce.
Other variables - biggest one is tamp pressure, all my barista's bar one are similar in stature and strength and so a consistent tamp pressure is achieved, if I come along and make myself a coffee I tamp too hard and the shot runs long - as such I'm told to sod off and they'll bring me a coffee. Next we need to think about ambient temp, humidity and how this affects the air and beans. My geekery is now exhausted but basically the beans will grind differently if they're warmer (think refrigerated chocolate and grating it vs ambient for an extreme metaphor) and any moisture that attaches itself to the beans and is present in the air will also impact the grind but I don't know why.
I think that's it but have probably forgotten something.
Why is this relevant to buying a bean to cup machine? The principles remain the same so if I was buying I'd want to know how it deals with the above, remember the brew is the easier bit, it's the grind and how it's prepared that makes the biggest difference. Circling back to my comment about the video published, the statement made is you adjust the size of grind to make the coffee stronger/not so strong. This doesn't really address the complexities involved and uses language not used by the industry. We don't say strong or weak, we talk about extraction, light/medium/dark roast etc.
I've not posted any equipment pics as I can't avoid our brand or that of our roaster and don't want to fall foul of PH rules.
OP, don't know if you're still looking, but after much research and procrastination I purchased the Sage Barista Impress about two months ago:
https://www.sageappliances.com/en-gb/product/bes87...
I wanted something to make decent espresso for me and milky coffees for my wife without too much faffing about. My wife also wanted something that looked nice on the worktop.
It gives me enough sense of control over the coffees without weighing stuff out and lots of different implements.
I've been getting beans from Beanz who are owned by Sage's parent (I'm lazy) and so far been very happy. Also trying beans from a very nice cafe-deli I go to.
If you buy a Sage then visit the Coffee Kev website as he provides discount codes.
Having a decent machine at home also exposes just how terrible the big chain coffee shops are when it comes to making coffee.
https://www.sageappliances.com/en-gb/product/bes87...
I wanted something to make decent espresso for me and milky coffees for my wife without too much faffing about. My wife also wanted something that looked nice on the worktop.
It gives me enough sense of control over the coffees without weighing stuff out and lots of different implements.
I've been getting beans from Beanz who are owned by Sage's parent (I'm lazy) and so far been very happy. Also trying beans from a very nice cafe-deli I go to.
If you buy a Sage then visit the Coffee Kev website as he provides discount codes.
Having a decent machine at home also exposes just how terrible the big chain coffee shops are when it comes to making coffee.
skyebear said:
OP, don't know if you're still looking, but after much research and procrastination I purchased the Sage Barista Impress about two months ago:
https://www.sageappliances.com/en-gb/product/bes87...
I wanted something to make decent espresso for me and milky coffees for my wife without too much faffing about. My wife also wanted something that looked nice on the worktop.
It gives me enough sense of control over the coffees without weighing stuff out and lots of different implements.
I've been getting beans from Beanz who are owned by Sage's parent (I'm lazy) and so far been very happy. Also trying beans from a very nice cafe-deli I go to.
If you buy a Sage then visit the Coffee Kev website as he provides discount codes.
Having a decent machine at home also exposes just how terrible the big chain coffee shops are when it comes to making coffee.
Cheers Skyebear,https://www.sageappliances.com/en-gb/product/bes87...
I wanted something to make decent espresso for me and milky coffees for my wife without too much faffing about. My wife also wanted something that looked nice on the worktop.
It gives me enough sense of control over the coffees without weighing stuff out and lots of different implements.
I've been getting beans from Beanz who are owned by Sage's parent (I'm lazy) and so far been very happy. Also trying beans from a very nice cafe-deli I go to.
If you buy a Sage then visit the Coffee Kev website as he provides discount codes.
Having a decent machine at home also exposes just how terrible the big chain coffee shops are when it comes to making coffee.
I'll give that a look, I've been distracted by car trouble (EV playing up) and we go away tomorrow but it's something I'm going to sort in the next couple of weeks.
Cheers T1b
I’ve got a “proper” manual espresso machine, a moka pot, an aeropress and various other brewing devices like chemex and v60.
I use the espresso machine at weekends and occasionally during the week, otherwise it’s nearly always the aeropress for quick, awesome coffee.
One thing I’ve never tried is a fully automated B2C machine. I can see the appeal, actually I quite fancy one for my workshop. Are any “self-cleaning”?
I use the espresso machine at weekends and occasionally during the week, otherwise it’s nearly always the aeropress for quick, awesome coffee.
One thing I’ve never tried is a fully automated B2C machine. I can see the appeal, actually I quite fancy one for my workshop. Are any “self-cleaning”?
skyebear said:
OP, don't know if you're still looking, but after much research and procrastination I purchased the Sage Barista Impress about two months ago:
https://www.sageappliances.com/en-gb/product/bes87...
I wanted something to make decent espresso for me and milky coffees for my wife without too much faffing about. My wife also wanted something that looked nice on the worktop.
It gives me enough sense of control over the coffees without weighing stuff out and lots of different implements.
I've been getting beans from Beanz who are owned by Sage's parent (I'm lazy) and so far been very happy. Also trying beans from a very nice cafe-deli I go to.
If you buy a Sage then visit the Coffee Kev website as he provides discount codes.
Having a decent machine at home also exposes just how terrible the big chain coffee shops are when it comes to making coffee.
I bought a very similar machine:https://www.sageappliances.com/en-gb/product/bes87...
I wanted something to make decent espresso for me and milky coffees for my wife without too much faffing about. My wife also wanted something that looked nice on the worktop.
It gives me enough sense of control over the coffees without weighing stuff out and lots of different implements.
I've been getting beans from Beanz who are owned by Sage's parent (I'm lazy) and so far been very happy. Also trying beans from a very nice cafe-deli I go to.
If you buy a Sage then visit the Coffee Kev website as he provides discount codes.
Having a decent machine at home also exposes just how terrible the big chain coffee shops are when it comes to making coffee.
https://www.sageappliances.com/en-gb/product/bes88...
Which is working very well. Beans from Rave.
Lefty said:
I ve got a proper manual espresso machine, a moka pot, an aeropress and various other brewing devices like chemex and v60.
I use the espresso machine at weekends and occasionally during the week, otherwise it s nearly always the aeropress for quick, awesome coffee.
One thing I ve never tried is a fully automated B2C machine. I can see the appeal, actually I quite fancy one for my workshop. Are any self-cleaning ?
My Sage is very easy. Not quite self cleaning, but almost. Put appropriate cleaning tab in appropriate place, fill with water, follow instructions on screen (Barista Pro).I use the espresso machine at weekends and occasionally during the week, otherwise it s nearly always the aeropress for quick, awesome coffee.
One thing I ve never tried is a fully automated B2C machine. I can see the appeal, actually I quite fancy one for my workshop. Are any self-cleaning ?
The largest cleaning effort comes from washing the water tray and wiping the chrome.
https://ilove.mybronson.com/
I ordered one of these quite a while ago having watched all the videos. It's currently in production. Seems a decent option. The frother/heater part of my DeLonghi recently broke so I've been making do with a Nespresso and separate milk frothing jug for a while.
I ordered one of these quite a while ago having watched all the videos. It's currently in production. Seems a decent option. The frother/heater part of my DeLonghi recently broke so I've been making do with a Nespresso and separate milk frothing jug for a while.
Lefty said:
I ve got a proper manual espresso machine, a moka pot, an aeropress and various other brewing devices like chemex and v60.
I use the espresso machine at weekends and occasionally during the week, otherwise it s nearly always the aeropress for quick, awesome coffee.
One thing I ve never tried is a fully automated B2C machine. I can see the appeal, actually I quite fancy one for my workshop. Are any self-cleaning ?
Leverpresso hanging in kettle. Weigh, grind and tamp ready for when kettle is at optimum temp. Kettle ready, take out pre-heated Leverpresso and insert basket, 30 second extraction done. Add maybe 20 secs to insert basket and fill with water...another 10 seconds if saturating puck and profiling shot.I use the espresso machine at weekends and occasionally during the week, otherwise it s nearly always the aeropress for quick, awesome coffee.
One thing I ve never tried is a fully automated B2C machine. I can see the appeal, actually I quite fancy one for my workshop. Are any self-cleaning ?
So, kettle boil(ish), plus 30(ish) seconds for an espresso shot.
I used to have a manual Gaggia (baby-sized home version of the stuff you see in a proper coffee shop), and with practice it was excellent. BUT...you needed to get everything right, and it was a bit of a faff when you just wanted a morning cuppa.
About 10 years ago i splurged on a Melitta bean-to-cup. It's somehow still going on all the original bits, and just needs the trays emptying every 10-12 cups and a cleaning routine every ~100 cups (& descaling routine less often here as the water's not too bad). You can remove the unit in 10 seconds and give it a good rinse/brush-off after the cleaning routine, so maintenance, whilst it IS there, isn't really that bad. It doesn't do a latte or a cappuchino or a macchiato but it does have a steamer wand and you can adjust both strength and length*, and it still gives a lovely crema. I've defaulted to getting a doppio from it added on top of either hot milk or hot water.
Cost back then should have been £500+ (I think they're close to twice that now), but it was a Black Friday deal and at the time Delonghi were perceived as less reliable (not sure now), so I did the man-maths and bought the better machine.
* how long the water is drawn through the grounds - longer = more astringent/more caffeinated.
About 10 years ago i splurged on a Melitta bean-to-cup. It's somehow still going on all the original bits, and just needs the trays emptying every 10-12 cups and a cleaning routine every ~100 cups (& descaling routine less often here as the water's not too bad). You can remove the unit in 10 seconds and give it a good rinse/brush-off after the cleaning routine, so maintenance, whilst it IS there, isn't really that bad. It doesn't do a latte or a cappuchino or a macchiato but it does have a steamer wand and you can adjust both strength and length*, and it still gives a lovely crema. I've defaulted to getting a doppio from it added on top of either hot milk or hot water.
Cost back then should have been £500+ (I think they're close to twice that now), but it was a Black Friday deal and at the time Delonghi were perceived as less reliable (not sure now), so I did the man-maths and bought the better machine.
* how long the water is drawn through the grounds - longer = more astringent/more caffeinated.
I've got the Gaggia Classic Havoc mentions above. It's been brilliant for nearly 10 years.
I'm torn between upgrading it further or changing to a Ninja.
I use it every day to make 1 or 2 espresso. I actually love the faff. It's my daily routine.
It is modded now with a pressure gauge, RV wound back to 10 bar, upgraded solenoid valve, and I use a bottomless portafilter.
I descale it fairly regularly and run Cafiza through it every 2 weeks.
If I keep it I'll get a new brass boiler and Shades of Coffee do a custom shower plate. That will be about £200 of upgrades.
But, a Ninja might be a required addition for our new kitchen...
I'm torn between upgrading it further or changing to a Ninja.
I use it every day to make 1 or 2 espresso. I actually love the faff. It's my daily routine.
It is modded now with a pressure gauge, RV wound back to 10 bar, upgraded solenoid valve, and I use a bottomless portafilter.
I descale it fairly regularly and run Cafiza through it every 2 weeks.
If I keep it I'll get a new brass boiler and Shades of Coffee do a custom shower plate. That will be about £200 of upgrades.
But, a Ninja might be a required addition for our new kitchen...
havoc said:
I used to have a manual Gaggia (baby-sized home version of the stuff you see in a proper coffee shop), and with practice it was excellent. BUT...you needed to get everything right, and it was a bit of a faff when you just wanted a morning cuppa.
About 10 years ago i splurged on a Melitta bean-to-cup. It's somehow still going on all the original bits, and just needs the trays emptying every 10-12 cups and a cleaning routine every ~100 cups (& descaling routine less often here as the water's not too bad). You can remove the unit in 10 seconds and give it a good rinse/brush-off after the cleaning routine, so maintenance, whilst it IS there, isn't really that bad. It doesn't do a latte or a cappuchino or a macchiato but it does have a steamer wand and you can adjust both strength and length*, and it still gives a lovely crema. I've defaulted to getting a doppio from it added on top of either hot milk or hot water.
Cost back then should have been £500+ (I think they're close to twice that now), but it was a Black Friday deal and at the time Delonghi were perceived as less reliable (not sure now), so I did the man-maths and bought the better machine.
* how long the water is drawn through the grounds - longer = more astringent/more caffeinated.
This was incredible performance by a $150 dollar DeLonghi Stilosa vs the S$4000 La Marzocco Linea Micra... Worth watching!About 10 years ago i splurged on a Melitta bean-to-cup. It's somehow still going on all the original bits, and just needs the trays emptying every 10-12 cups and a cleaning routine every ~100 cups (& descaling routine less often here as the water's not too bad). You can remove the unit in 10 seconds and give it a good rinse/brush-off after the cleaning routine, so maintenance, whilst it IS there, isn't really that bad. It doesn't do a latte or a cappuchino or a macchiato but it does have a steamer wand and you can adjust both strength and length*, and it still gives a lovely crema. I've defaulted to getting a doppio from it added on top of either hot milk or hot water.
Cost back then should have been £500+ (I think they're close to twice that now), but it was a Black Friday deal and at the time Delonghi were perceived as less reliable (not sure now), so I did the man-maths and bought the better machine.
* how long the water is drawn through the grounds - longer = more astringent/more caffeinated.
Lance Hedrick back-to-back performance on YouTubby: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rxnJRrHcjw
Selling my Sage Barista Express Impress as it doesn’t get enough use. It’s only used at a weekend, usually for just one drink, so most of the bag of coffee ends up going stale and I can’t justify that cost to use ratio. So have gone back to a Nespresso machine as the pods last a lot longer, even if they don’t get close to what a proper machine can produce. Although trying Difference Coffee Company pods at the moment and they’re very impressive, but at a cost. Back on topic, I’d definitely recommend the Impress.
jonott said:
Selling my Sage Barista Express Impress as it doesn t get enough use. It s only used at a weekend, usually for just one drink, so most of the bag of coffee ends up going stale and I can t justify that cost to use ratio. So have gone back to a Nespresso machine as the pods last a lot longer, even if they don t get close to what a proper machine can produce. Although trying Difference Coffee Company pods at the moment and they re very impressive, but at a cost. Back on topic, I d definitely recommend the Impress.
Difference Coffee do make some lovely tasting pods, but as you say expensive but I guess you are paying for world topping coffee beans rather than George Clooney's fee I can live with that. 
To other Delonghi owners - I discovered a while back we are meant to change the rubber Oring / grease, regularly. It did make a difference for me 
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/hwIA4iQdXGI?si=FPSL...
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/hwIA4iQdXGI?si=FPSL...
Want press button, out comes decent coffee without faff for not a horrendous amount of money?
We have had bean to cup machines for 26+ years now. 3 of them, first one from Germany that came home with us in the back of a TVR Tuscan
. Next 2 have both been Delonghi. I feel they are the Ronseal of b2c. I would replace our current with another one.
We only drink black coffee so cannot comment on the yukky milky stuff though.
https://www.theguardian.com/thefilter/2026/apr/05/...
We have had bean to cup machines for 26+ years now. 3 of them, first one from Germany that came home with us in the back of a TVR Tuscan
. Next 2 have both been Delonghi. I feel they are the Ronseal of b2c. I would replace our current with another one.We only drink black coffee so cannot comment on the yukky milky stuff though.
https://www.theguardian.com/thefilter/2026/apr/05/...
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