Game of Thrones - vol II - NO SPOILERS
Discussion
gregs656 said:
chris watton said:
Thinking about this even more, it is now clear that Jon Snow's story arc, that has been set up over the past seven seasons, has been dumped on in favour of woman saving the day in every situation.
This is non-sense. Arya has been much, much better at actually delivering/achieving her aims. Jon is worthy but has mostly got him self in situations he needs help to resolve.
This fits in with both of their story arcs.
gregs656 said:
chris watton said:
Thinking about this even more, it is now clear that Jon Snow's story arc, that has been set up over the past seven seasons, has been dumped on in favour of woman saving the day in every situation.
This is non-sense. Arya has been much, much better at actually delivering/achieving her aims. Jon is worthy but has mostly got him self in situations he needs help to resolve.
This fits in with both of their story arcs.
As someone else said, it would be like the end fight in Return of the Jedi with Luke and Vader, except Chewbacca rocks up and shoots Vader dead.
chris watton said:
The way I see it is that the White Walkers and the Night King is predominantly Jon's arc. He should have been the one to resolve this.
As someone else said, it would be like the end fight in Return of the Jedi with Luke and Vader, except Chewbacca rocks up and shoots Vader dead.
I tend to agree. The NK wasn't even on her list! As someone else said, it would be like the end fight in Return of the Jedi with Luke and Vader, except Chewbacca rocks up and shoots Vader dead.
Her whole arc has been about avenging her family and friends so this was completely outside of this as the NK had nothing to do with any Stark deaths.
Jon on the other hand has basically been in it from the start to protect the realm from the dead.
No wonder Kit Harington was pissed.
chris watton said:
The way I see it is that the White Walkers and the Night King is predominantly Jon's arc. He should have been the one to resolve this.
As someone else said, it would be like the end fight in Return of the Jedi with Luke and Vader, except Chewbacca rocks up and shoots Vader dead.
I think it's more like Han Solo shooting him and then quipping "See, kid? I told you that hokey religions and a laser sword are no match for a good blaster". As someone else said, it would be like the end fight in Return of the Jedi with Luke and Vader, except Chewbacca rocks up and shoots Vader dead.
(And let's not forget that Han *did* save Luke's arse in the assault on the Death Star in A New Hope)
Nom de ploom said:
rustyuk said:
Personally I thought it was poorly shot and written. Don't really care about the last 3 episodes.
7 Years waiting for that episode and 80% was in the dark.
they were being attacked by the NIGHT king. night = dark. they bring the winter and bad weather the dead don't need to see to fight - made perfect sense to me.7 Years waiting for that episode and 80% was in the dark.
battles are chaos and i thought it came across really well that they were in a tight spot - I would have liked a bit more hero focus and i would have expected more organisation in defence - Davos is no general clearly.
I thought the only major flaw was when the trench was lit and the dead just stood there and had to wait to be told to fall on the flames despite previously running headlong into battle.
as for what happens next there will be quite a clear up and I suspect a large bonfire. They were holding Pyke as a last refuge from the NK iirc which is no longer a requirement.
interestingly I thought when the NK survived the dragon fire whether he coul dhave been an old targaryen or was he just too "cool" to be burned
There was talk about the NK going to Westeros, what a storyline that would have been. Cersei attacking the North as the NK's Mrs!!
Clockwork Cupcake said:
chris watton said:
The way I see it is that the White Walkers and the Night King is predominantly Jon's arc. He should have been the one to resolve this.
As someone else said, it would be like the end fight in Return of the Jedi with Luke and Vader, except Chewbacca rocks up and shoots Vader dead.
I think it's more like Han Solo shooting him and then quipping "See, kid? I told you that hokey religions and a laser sword are no match for a good blaster". As someone else said, it would be like the end fight in Return of the Jedi with Luke and Vader, except Chewbacca rocks up and shoots Vader dead.
(And let's not forget that Han *did* save Luke's arse in the assault on the Death Star in A New Hope)
chris watton said:
The way I see it is that the White Walkers and the Night King is predominantly Jon's arc. He should have been the one to resolve this.
And what I am saying is that he has rarely resolved anything on his own, his move was and has been to bring in people to help him do the job, so it totally fits. gregs656 said:
And what I am saying is that he has rarely resolved anything on his own, his move was and has been to bring in people to help him do the job, so it totally fits.
Absolutely. For all his denials that he has never wanted to be a leader, he has time and time again shown the qualities of a King. He has rallied people to his side and under his banner. The fact that someone else dealt the killing blow doesn't diminish his achievements. rustyuk said:
It might make sense but you couldn't see a thing. Everyone was expecting big deaths - none of those. Just a poor episode.
There was talk about the NK going to Westeros, what a storyline that would have been. Cersei attacking the North as the NK's Mrs!!
I could see it alright, just needed to adjust the settings which has become the norm for GOT anyway.There was talk about the NK going to Westeros, what a storyline that would have been. Cersei attacking the North as the NK's Mrs!!
Big deaths, well there was the NK himself, that was pretty big and unexpected, Theon has been a pivotal character since the first episode, all of the Dothraki, Beric Dondarrion (since season 1, ep 6), Jorah Mormont (since episode 1!), Lyanna Mormot (killing kids is always a 'big' death), Edd (not so 'big' but he's been there since season 2)
It's not like they just killed a load of red shirts and everyone else survived, we still have another 3 large episodes to get through yet!
chris watton said:
The way I see it is that the White Walkers and the Night King is predominantly Jon's arc. He should have been the one to resolve this.
As someone else said, it would be like the end fight in Return of the Jedi with Luke and Vader, except Chewbacca rocks up and shoots Vader dead.
Just to come back to your SW analogy, it doesn't work; it's not even close to working.As someone else said, it would be like the end fight in Return of the Jedi with Luke and Vader, except Chewbacca rocks up and shoots Vader dead.
Jon has spent how long? 2 seasons? 2 1/2 seasons? Trying to pull together an army from a body of people already preoccupied with war together to fight the NK as the living vs the dead - all the while saying he didn't want to lead them.
During that time he got screwed at the BoB and saved by the Knights of the Vale thanks to Sansa (at the cost of things like a Giant), he got screwed at Hardhome and had to be saved by daenerys (at the cost of a Dragon) and he is only alive to do any of these things because the Nights Watch which he was leading were so dissatisfied with his leadership that they murdered him, luckily he was brought back (Melisandre).
And that is just the last couple of seasons or so. Bit late to suggest they tossed his arc out of the window to give a woman a chance to save the day. Particularly as the woman characters in this show have consistently been a match for the men anyway.
Nothing like Luke Skywalker who was always a loner from his childhood onwards.
Arya on the other hand has had an arc of a loner. She is the one who was separate, trained alone, had a single minded intention to *personally* kill or at least fight a few individuals on her list, and had the training to do it.
If anything, it would have robbed Arya of her moment if Jon had been the one to swing the final blow.
FourWheelDrift said:
Yes because if they didn't the end result was obvious, because the result wasn't obvious doesn't make it bad.
Certainly surprising. I think with a better lead in, it would have been more of an Endgame moment, instead of WTH.Makes me wonder if Jon will steal Arya's projected target, Cersei.
Any guesses on what's left, pretty much all the Dothraki and Unsullied dead? Daenerys seems to have lost most of her forces. Umbers gone at last Hearth. Jon would have lost most of his support, Wildlings, Night's Watch, Ghost. So 2 Dragons, some MVPs and a few assorted red shirts. Plus what's left of Yara's Ironborn. Could she call/have called upon Daario Naharis and the Second Sons from Meereen for support?
Meanwhile, Sansa (who does not like or trust Daenerys) has her loyal Knights of the Vale that she moved out of the game before the battle and House Glover (I bet you never thought about them supporting her) secure in Deepwood Motte on her side and possibly what might be left of the Tulley army in the Riverlands now the Freys are dead and gone. Where's Edmure?
Cersei has the remains of the un-BBQd Lannister Army and the Golden Company arriving + Euron's Iron born.
Advantage Sansa I'd say. Those left in the north who do not support the Targaryen's and feel betrayed by their "King in the North" bending the knee and abandoning his title for the Targ could be behind Sansa. She learnt a lot from Cersei, when does she make her move?
Meanwhile, Sansa (who does not like or trust Daenerys) has her loyal Knights of the Vale that she moved out of the game before the battle and House Glover (I bet you never thought about them supporting her) secure in Deepwood Motte on her side and possibly what might be left of the Tulley army in the Riverlands now the Freys are dead and gone. Where's Edmure?
Cersei has the remains of the un-BBQd Lannister Army and the Golden Company arriving + Euron's Iron born.
Advantage Sansa I'd say. Those left in the north who do not support the Targaryen's and feel betrayed by their "King in the North" bending the knee and abandoning his title for the Targ could be behind Sansa. She learnt a lot from Cersei, when does she make her move?
irocfan said:
Watched thronecast and they had Hodor as their special guest - f
k me I'd forgotten what a monster that bloke is!!!
k me I'd forgotten what a monster that bloke is!!!, I had an idea that the pub landlord was big, he looked like a child.Nom de ploom said:
is that aimed at the writers bringing strong female characters into the fray or a veiled dig at presumed feminism in a made up fantasy story that has no bearing on real life?
As opposed to a real fantasy story? Clockwork Cupcake said:
Absolutely. For all his denials that he has never wanted to be a leader, e has time and time again shown the qualities of a King. He has rallied people to his side and under his banner. The fact that someone else dealt the killing blow doesn't diminish his achievements.
I fully agree with that statement if, one accepts that the qualities of a king is to be utterly incompetent, make s
tty decision after stty decision, alienate powerful allies and be saved in the nick of time everytime by friends, because he is supernaturally charismatic. I think pretty much most/all of the theories are not gonna happen. WHat people say and do on the show and what they say and do, there is no hidden subtext...having said that. THe Targ connection to the Golden COmpany somebody pointed out a while back...well we have Dani and Jon...does anyone foresee a 'Goldcloak' moment happening to Cersei, ala Littlefinger and thanks to Harry Strickland?
It'd certainly be a way to resolve the sudden power imbalance...of course there's alsocheapknockoffjacksparrowEuron greyjoy.
It'd certainly be a way to resolve the sudden power imbalance...of course there's also
Halb said:
I fully agree with that statement if, one accepts that the qualities of a king is to be utterly incompetent, make s
tty decision after stty decision, alienate powerful allies and be saved in the nick of time everytime by friends, because he is supernaturally charismatic. Oh, wait, sorry. Wrong King.
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