Furloughing Staff

[Digga]

Tyre Smoke said:

Yes, but there isn't any means to stop you claiming 80% of a non furloughed staff member's pay. In theory I could claim 80% of my wage bill.

That's going to be a tempting proposition for desperate firms.

Your firm keeps booking work through at an un-diminished rate, you'd have to explain how that was possible, given no one, not even Richard Branson, employs people to do fk all. HMRC aren't daft.

then there's the issue of retrospectivity; they have as much time as they need to investigate. if they can find any proof the employee was still attending work, or even taking part in work from home, they will catch you.

[Ham_and_Jam]

Just submitted claim for last 3 weeks for 6 staff. Very simple, much simpler than the calculator they have online!

The only box I wasn’t 100% on was the employer NICs. We claim these back every quarter using the employment allowance. So even though it asked for them (to claim back) I put zero. Guess that’s correct?

[Ham_and_Jam]

Road2Ruin said:

You are correct, there isn't. Tempting though? Not for me, but I agree, some. There will be computerised risk checks, but a lot will get through, if they are not greedy..

Not in the slightest bit tempting. Jeez I worry if I think I’ve got my books out by a penny!

People abusing this will be the same people exploiting VAT and customs rebates. They are criminals first and foremost.

[Digga]

Ham_and_Jam said:

Road2Ruin said:

You are correct, there isn't. Tempting though? Not for me, but I agree, some. There will be computerised risk checks, but a lot will get through, if they are not greedy..

Not in the slightest bit tempting. Jeez I worry if I think I’ve got my books out by a penny!

People abusing this will be the same people exploiting VAT and customs rebates. They are criminals first and foremost.

Agreed. And eventually they get caught.

Only need some anomalous data, a disgruntled employee etc. etc. all of which could happen a good way into the future. They'd be advised to look over their shoulders.

[Dixy]

Done, I think, I hope.

Several problems because I am at home not at my desk. The biggest being the authentication code use to go to my office landline, so had to get that changed and that required a phone call to HMRC. Unbelievably quickly answered and incredibly helpful chap sorted it.

I think the fact that the state have sorted this so quickly is truly amazing.

On Thursday I will also be clapping for the civil servants who have made this happen. Not as skilled or as dangerous a job as front line medics but if this had not happened civilisation would have been sorely tested with mass redundancies.

[Killthebankers]

Are people claiming in advance to actually paying staff and if paying weekly can you claim for the first 3 weeks and the next 3 weeks at the same time?

[Ham_and_Jam]

Killthebankers said:

Are people claiming in advance to actually paying staff and if paying weekly can you claim for the first 3 weeks and the next 3 weeks at the same time?

You can claim from when the scheme started (1 March) and up to the next 14 days ahead (4 May)

I’m keeping it simple. I pay weekly so claiming the last 3 weeks, then in 3 weeks the next 3 etc...

[Eric Mc]

The furlough scheme was announced on 16 March. How can anybody claim they had furloughed staff between 1 March 2020 and 15 March 2020?

[Digga]

Eric Mc said:

The furlough scheme was announced on 16 March. How can anybody claim they had furloughed staff between 1 March 2020 and 15 March 2020?

IIRC, HMRC and the government wanted to retrospectively 'save' jobs of people already laid off. This, predominantly being in pubs and restaurants I believe.

[p1stonhead]

Digga said:

Eric Mc said:

The furlough scheme was announced on 16 March. How can anybody claim they had furloughed staff between 1 March 2020 and 15 March 2020?

IIRC, HMRC and the government wanted to retrospectively 'save' jobs of people already laid off. This, predominantly being in pubs and restaurants I believe.

Indeed. People who were recently removed from their positions either redundant or whatever, could be taken back on and furloughed instead. Happened to a friend of mine.

[Tyre Smoke]

Digga said:

Ham_and_Jam said:

Road2Ruin said:

You are correct, there isn't. Tempting though? Not for me, but I agree, some. There will be computerised risk checks, but a lot will get through, if they are not greedy..

Not in the slightest bit tempting. Jeez I worry if I think I’ve got my books out by a penny!

People abusing this will be the same people exploiting VAT and customs rebates. They are criminals first and foremost.

Agreed. And eventually they get caught.

Only need some anomalous data, a disgruntled employee etc. etc. all of which could happen a good way into the future. They'd be advised to look over their shoulders.

To clarify, I wasn't for one moment suggesting I would do it. But it wouldn't be difficult to abuse the system and not get caught. No employee is going to know any different. If they're working they're going to be paid, if they're furloughed they'll be getting paid. It's only the person making the fraudulent claim will be in the know. Small firm, boss does payroll...

[richardxjr]

p1stonhead said:

Digga said:

Eric Mc said:

The furlough scheme was announced on 16 March. How can anybody claim they had furloughed staff between 1 March 2020 and 15 March 2020?

IIRC, HMRC and the government wanted to retrospectively 'save' jobs of people already laid off. This, predominantly being in pubs and restaurants I believe.

Indeed. People who were recently removed from their positions either redundant or whatever, could be taken back on and furloughed instead. Happened to a friend of mine.

This backdating was [one of the few things] very clear from the start. C'mon Eric!

[Eric Mc]

So you can have been furloughed by your an employer before you actually really were furloughed?

[DKL]

Just to check, I have a payroll run for march and now april, which is what I will be paying (or have paid) the staff. They are always slightly different month to month as I have staff that work set days per week.
But am I correct in saying I'm not using these figures for any claim but rather feb 20 payroll or the average of the last 12 months?
Seems a bit odd.

[p1stonhead]

Eric Mc said:

So you can have been furloughed by your an employer before you actually really were furloughed?

Yes basically. Brought back from redundancy and furloughed instead. My friend was in the events industry which cratered long before other industries hence she was let go end of feb I think it was. Brought back when furlough was announced and remains there.

[Digga]

Tyre Smoke said:

Digga said:

Ham_and_Jam said:

Road2Ruin said:

You are correct, there isn't. Tempting though? Not for me, but I agree, some. There will be computerised risk checks, but a lot will get through, if they are not greedy..

Not in the slightest bit tempting. Jeez I worry if I think I’ve got my books out by a penny!

People abusing this will be the same people exploiting VAT and customs rebates. They are criminals first and foremost.

Agreed. And eventually they get caught.

Only need some anomalous data, a disgruntled employee etc. etc. all of which could happen a good way into the future. They'd be advised to look over their shoulders.

To clarify, I wasn't for one moment suggesting I would do it. But it wouldn't be difficult to abuse the system and not get caught. No employee is going to know any different. If they're working they're going to be paid, if they're furloughed they'll be getting paid. It's only the person making the fraudulent claim will be in the know. Small firm, boss does payroll...

It's all fine, right up until the point it's not.

True story; about 10 years back, my parents were on their routine, daily jog around the block. About ten doors down from home, they watched the police, aiding HMRC, bash one of their neighbour's front door in (about 6am). Long story short, the couple that lived there ran a building firm and, eventually one of them was sent down for not paying all taxes and NI due on their payroll. Got away with it for years, until that day.

Story: https://www.itv.com/news/central/2014-07-30/fraud-...

[richardxjr]

Eric Mc said:

So you can have been furloughed by your an employer before you actually really were furloughed?

You sound a little too baffled for a SME accountant.

If I had made a redundancy on, say 1st March I would have re-employed on, say 21 March (after hearing of this scheme) and informed them of being furloughed from as from 1st March.

[Ham_and_Jam]

DKL said:

Just to check, I have a payroll run for march and now april, which is what I will be paying (or have paid) the staff. They are always slightly different month to month as I have staff that work set days per week.
But am I correct in saying I'm not using these figures for any claim but rather feb 20 payroll or the average of the last 12 months?
Seems a bit odd.

Claims for those on variable pay, should be calculated using either:

1. Same month’s earning from the previous year
2. Average monthly earnings for the 2019 to 2020 tax year

Choose whichever is the higher.

Edited by Ham_and_Jam on Monday 20th April 16:29

[Tyre Smoke]

Or if they haven't been with you a year, average of pay to date.

[DKL]

Thanks, that's what I deduced but seems odd as I have the actual figures. Ah well.