ULEZ charge in 2021
Discussion
DickP said:
Could this just not force people to move out of London when it comes to work and living? Therefore having a negative impact on the "London economy"?
Probably won't have a noticeable difference in monetary terms given the amount of external investors mind.
Some. The last 2/3 years has seen an enormous exodus of the middle classes out to anywhere that is around a one hour train run in. But as one leaves others coming in from all over and seemingly have more prolific spending habits so I don’t think it has a huge effect. It’s also a function of property prices as the move from 2 bed to 3 bed is a price move from £1m to £1.5 whereas the move from 2 bed to out of town house in Oxford or similar is £1m to £1m so no additional borrow required Probably won't have a noticeable difference in monetary terms given the amount of external investors mind.
To be honest, the vast bulk of congestion in and around the CC zone is now from minicabs during off peak hours. The increase in the number of minicabs since the introduction of the flourecent green disabled badge has been phenomenal. And they remain in the area for hours and hours just moving about as black cabs have always done but in huge numbers.
On a run from tower bridge to hampstead yesterday I would guess that more than 50% of the vehicles through the City, around KC and along the Marylebone Rd were minicabs.
The interesting element was that those that did have passengers seemed to have quite young passengers. When we were in our twenties we never used cabs as that money was needed for the house deposit but today they are not just more prolific but wealthier and their socialising is completely different and not confined around the tube network.
I just expect this growth in minicabs to continue as more pressures are brought down on private vehicles.
Edited by DonkeyApple on Monday 11th June 09:16
I don’t think it will make a blind bit of difference to people working in London. Other than Hedge Fund managers, no one actually drives into London for work - its impossible to park for starters. And most of the Hedgies I know don’t drive old cars as dailies, or really wouldn’t think that 12.50 is a big deal at all.
The bigger challenge will be people living in the zone - there are a load of pretty deprived areas in that zone, and they’re going to need new cars, as there are loads of perfectly serviceable pre 2001/6 cars being driven in there. I suppose all the poor people will have to go and live in the North or something, which is a pretty strange policy for a Labour mayor to be chasing.
So I don’t see an economic issue at all - just a social one. The absurdity is that the air in London is cleaner that it has ever been, having lived in and around London for close to 40 years, there are really no issues at all when you compare it to the 80s when I honestly wore a gas mask in the summer when it was hot and really stinky. Even worse, the filters lasted about a week before failing and blocking.
The bigger challenge will be people living in the zone - there are a load of pretty deprived areas in that zone, and they’re going to need new cars, as there are loads of perfectly serviceable pre 2001/6 cars being driven in there. I suppose all the poor people will have to go and live in the North or something, which is a pretty strange policy for a Labour mayor to be chasing.
So I don’t see an economic issue at all - just a social one. The absurdity is that the air in London is cleaner that it has ever been, having lived in and around London for close to 40 years, there are really no issues at all when you compare it to the 80s when I honestly wore a gas mask in the summer when it was hot and really stinky. Even worse, the filters lasted about a week before failing and blocking.
kev1974 said:
It's basically unnecessary, as others have said even if there is a pollution problem it is one that will sort itself out naturally over time as the majority of older vehicles gradually get removed from the road and effect any noticeable change.
It’s unnecessary because the private cars being charged out of existence are not a major cause of the “problem”. The vehicles with their engines running all day, every day, are buses, cabs and delivery vehicles. The bike lanes have also had a catastrophic effect on congestion, which obviously has a direct causal link to pollution - go to Lower Thames Street (or anywhere else on that East/West route) on any weekday and see how many of the vehicles stuck there idling for hours are the private cars Kahnt is effectively outlawing.
DonkeyApple said:
That seems somewhat at odds with all the private cars in Zones 1&2 being parked up all week and every road into London jammed with queuing cars from around 7am.
Virtually nobody commutes into the current Congestion/T Charge zone by private car, but London is a big, busy city and people need to make journeys that aren’t convenient via bus or train - that isn’t going to change, they’ll just be forced into an Uber. rxe said:
I don’t think it will make a blind bit of difference to people working in London. Other than Hedge Fund managers, no one actually drives into London for work - its impossible to park for starters. And most of the Hedgies I know don’t drive old cars as dailies, or really wouldn’t think that 12.50 is a big deal at all.
The bigger challenge will be people living in the zone - there are a load of pretty deprived areas in that zone, and they’re going to need new cars, as there are loads of perfectly serviceable pre 2001/6 cars being driven in there. I suppose all the poor people will have to go and live in the North or something, which is a pretty strange policy for a Labour mayor to be chasing.
So I don’t see an economic issue at all - just a social one. The absurdity is that the air in London is cleaner that it has ever been, having lived in and around London for close to 40 years, there are really no issues at all when you compare it to the 80s when I honestly wore a gas mask in the summer when it was hot and really stinky. Even worse, the filters lasted about a week before failing and blocking.
I suspect that the poor will continue to give up on car ownership and expand their usage of uber. The huge benefit of uber is that it doesn’t require saving up £200 for road taxes or insurance and you no longer have that exhausting walk from a bus stop or car park to the KFC. Plus, as every PLG will contain people who own watches, iPhones and other fancy chattels the efficiencies of robbing them will go through the roof as in all 4th world economies where the wealthy self segregated out into easily identifiable and targetable positions. The bigger challenge will be people living in the zone - there are a load of pretty deprived areas in that zone, and they’re going to need new cars, as there are loads of perfectly serviceable pre 2001/6 cars being driven in there. I suppose all the poor people will have to go and live in the North or something, which is a pretty strange policy for a Labour mayor to be chasing.
So I don’t see an economic issue at all - just a social one. The absurdity is that the air in London is cleaner that it has ever been, having lived in and around London for close to 40 years, there are really no issues at all when you compare it to the 80s when I honestly wore a gas mask in the summer when it was hot and really stinky. Even worse, the filters lasted about a week before failing and blocking.
cb1965 said:
DickP said:
Could this just not force people to move out of London when it comes to work and living?
Hope not, the last thing we need is a host of 'up themselves' people invading the nicer parts of the country.24% of tips are walking
2% are by cycle
36% car.
Stats TfL 2015
This change of less car use has been going on for years in London and yet we are still looking at a city heading towards 10mil people living there. Very few people choice of location is based on if they can use a car, but just easy of getting to work.
Let say with tax, parking, insurance, service, and loss of value that you pay £3000 a year. At £15 on average for an Uber that 150 journeys!
Something the TFL website doesn't make clear is exactly when this ULEZ charge becomes effective.
Looking at https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emissio... I see the following:
To help improve air quality, an Ultra Low Emission Zone (ULEZ) will be in place in central London from 8 April 2019.
Reading a bit further, I see:
From 25 October 2021 the area will be expanded to the inner London area bounded by the North and South Circular roads. [...] Residents who are registered for the residents' Congestion Charge discount will get a 100% ULEZ discount until 24 October 2021 to give them more time to change their vehicle to meet the ULEZ standards.
I live (just) outside the expanded ULEZ zone, on the south side of the South Circular. At present, I make a lot of journeys in my Euro 3 diesel to see friends in Dulwich, on the north side of the South Circular and within the expanded ULEZ zone. (I am generally carrying a lot of heavy equipment to their house, so yes I do need to drive. I am also aware of the foolishness of using a diesel for short journies etc. etc.)
Question is: when will I need to start paying £12.50 each time I go to see them - April 2019 or October 2021? This is absolutely critical - seeing as the worst-case scenario is that this charge hits thousands of vehicles in 11 months time.
(The chances are I probably won't go to see them, much as I love them, or at least will slum it via two buses and a half mile walk and won't take them the DIY equipment I currently do as a favour.)
Looking at https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emissio... I see the following:
To help improve air quality, an Ultra Low Emission Zone (ULEZ) will be in place in central London from 8 April 2019.
Reading a bit further, I see:
From 25 October 2021 the area will be expanded to the inner London area bounded by the North and South Circular roads. [...] Residents who are registered for the residents' Congestion Charge discount will get a 100% ULEZ discount until 24 October 2021 to give them more time to change their vehicle to meet the ULEZ standards.
I live (just) outside the expanded ULEZ zone, on the south side of the South Circular. At present, I make a lot of journeys in my Euro 3 diesel to see friends in Dulwich, on the north side of the South Circular and within the expanded ULEZ zone. (I am generally carrying a lot of heavy equipment to their house, so yes I do need to drive. I am also aware of the foolishness of using a diesel for short journies etc. etc.)
Question is: when will I need to start paying £12.50 each time I go to see them - April 2019 or October 2021? This is absolutely critical - seeing as the worst-case scenario is that this charge hits thousands of vehicles in 11 months time.
(The chances are I probably won't go to see them, much as I love them, or at least will slum it via two buses and a half mile walk and won't take them the DIY equipment I currently do as a favour.)
Driving into London is already unpleasant enough, I doubt people do the journey unless they really need to. Drivers using older vehicles are predominantly doing so because they can't afford to change their car.
I need a car for long distance journeys or visiting family in South London (try getting from NW London to S London on a weekend using public transport...) and for the other occasions when using other transport isn't viable. I drove my car to work in central London on only 5 occasions this year- when it snowed. Public transport was not working, motorcycling in (my usual mode of transport) was too dangerous and no way I'm getting in an uber. Firstly because I hate the b*astards as they're always trying to kill motorcyclists through their incompetence and secondly because none of them have winter tyres or for that matter, any driving ability. I saw 4 prius's wrapped around lamp posts on just 1 journey for Tottenham Court Rd to West London on one of the snow days...
I do think the air quality needs to be improved but they need to make it viable to use other transport and not just prohibit people from using their cars without providing a viable alternative. I also think it's ridiculous that buses and taxis are largely unaffected by the changes despite being well documented as major contributors to the capitals pollution. I changed job last year meaning a commute into central London, I could only tolerate public transport for 2 months before I did my CBT and bought a motorbike. 2 months of standing on an overcrowded, delayed train with people who haven't learned how to use deodorant was more than enough for me. I have now halved the time of my commute and saved money, and will save even more when my bike finance is finally paid off.
As has been said further up the thread I think something really fishy is going on with the complete lack of media attention to the real impact of this. We need to find a mayoral candidate who will stand in the election with the sole purpose of overturning the ULEZ expansion just as Boris did with the CC when that was expanded.
I need a car for long distance journeys or visiting family in South London (try getting from NW London to S London on a weekend using public transport...) and for the other occasions when using other transport isn't viable. I drove my car to work in central London on only 5 occasions this year- when it snowed. Public transport was not working, motorcycling in (my usual mode of transport) was too dangerous and no way I'm getting in an uber. Firstly because I hate the b*astards as they're always trying to kill motorcyclists through their incompetence and secondly because none of them have winter tyres or for that matter, any driving ability. I saw 4 prius's wrapped around lamp posts on just 1 journey for Tottenham Court Rd to West London on one of the snow days...
I do think the air quality needs to be improved but they need to make it viable to use other transport and not just prohibit people from using their cars without providing a viable alternative. I also think it's ridiculous that buses and taxis are largely unaffected by the changes despite being well documented as major contributors to the capitals pollution. I changed job last year meaning a commute into central London, I could only tolerate public transport for 2 months before I did my CBT and bought a motorbike. 2 months of standing on an overcrowded, delayed train with people who haven't learned how to use deodorant was more than enough for me. I have now halved the time of my commute and saved money, and will save even more when my bike finance is finally paid off.
As has been said further up the thread I think something really fishy is going on with the complete lack of media attention to the real impact of this. We need to find a mayoral candidate who will stand in the election with the sole purpose of overturning the ULEZ expansion just as Boris did with the CC when that was expanded.
DonkeyApple said:
NomduJour said:
The point being made was that this happened despite the number of private cars using the roads there falling to a very low level. The key reasons for the latest decline in average speeds is a significant decline in the road space available to motor vehicles. Land has been used to build cycle lanes and it is also being consumed by temporary construction work spilling onto the road. While the number of private cars has fallen, the proportion of delivery vans and private hire cars (Uber et al) has increased significantly.
https://www.ft.com/content/40774fc6-76b5-11e6-bf48...
NomduJour said:
London rents are often silly-cheap against values (my council tax is dirt-cheap, too).
Might be cheap against values but the £1500 a month I pay for my 1.5 bedroom flat just in the S. Circular is over 70% of my take home pay.A bit of maths should show that my pay is above average, I think, but for many it is a real struggle.
Unfortunately my work is mainly in London as are my kids, much that I would love to leave.
Saying that you must be in the same borough as me, or Westminster as yes, Council Tax is a fraction of what I was paying on my brief respite out in Surrey
croyde said:
Might be cheap against values but the £1500 a month I pay for my 1.5 bedroom flat just in the S. Circular is over 70% of my take home pay.
A bit of maths should show that my pay is above average, I think, but for many it is a real struggle.
Unfortunately my work is mainly in London as are my kids, much that I would love to leave.
Saying that you must be in the same borough as me, or Westminster as yes, Council Tax is a fraction of what I was paying on my brief respite out in Surrey
You're being robbed! I let out a beautiful two bed/bath flat for £1850/month in Fulham.A bit of maths should show that my pay is above average, I think, but for many it is a real struggle.
Unfortunately my work is mainly in London as are my kids, much that I would love to leave.
Saying that you must be in the same borough as me, or Westminster as yes, Council Tax is a fraction of what I was paying on my brief respite out in Surrey
NomduJour said:
It’s unnecessary because the private cars being charged out of existence are not a major cause of the “problem”. The vehicles with their engines running all day, every day, are buses, cabs and delivery vehicles.
The bike lanes have also had a catastrophic effect on congestion, which obviously has a direct causal link to pollution - go to Lower Thames Street (or anywhere else on that East/West route) on any weekday and see how many of the vehicles stuck there idling for hours are the private cars Kahnt is effectively outlawing.
That really is the nub of it. All three of those should be rapidly forced to be EV and their lanes cleared of the huge obstruction of bicycles. The bike lanes have also had a catastrophic effect on congestion, which obviously has a direct causal link to pollution - go to Lower Thames Street (or anywhere else on that East/West route) on any weekday and see how many of the vehicles stuck there idling for hours are the private cars Kahnt is effectively outlawing.
Hybrids for minicabbing don’t work as the engine is running the whole shift as the batteries never get an open road run to charge and none of those sheds in the back gardens around Heathrow have overnight charging capability.
NomduJour said:
croyde said:
Like outrageous rent (sort that out Khan), council tax and fuel bills.
London rents are often silly-cheap against values (my council tax is dirt-cheap, too). Mr Dripping said:
Something the TFL website doesn't make clear is exactly when this ULEZ charge becomes effective.
Looking at https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emissio... I see the following:
To help improve air quality, an Ultra Low Emission Zone (ULEZ) will be in place in central London from 8 April 2019.
Reading a bit further, I see:
From 25 October 2021 the area will be expanded to the inner London area bounded by the North and South Circular roads. [...] Residents who are registered for the residents' Congestion Charge discount will get a 100% ULEZ discount until 24 October 2021 to give them more time to change their vehicle to meet the ULEZ standards.
I live (just) outside the expanded ULEZ zone, on the south side of the South Circular. At present, I make a lot of journeys in my Euro 3 diesel to see friends in Dulwich, on the north side of the South Circular and within the expanded ULEZ zone. (I am generally carrying a lot of heavy equipment to their house, so yes I do need to drive. I am also aware of the foolishness of using a diesel for short journies etc. etc.)
Question is: when will I need to start paying £12.50 each time I go to see them - April 2019 or October 2021? This is absolutely critical - seeing as the worst-case scenario is that this charge hits thousands of vehicles in 11 months time.
(The chances are I probably won't go to see them, much as I love them, or at least will slum it via two buses and a half mile walk and won't take them the DIY equipment I currently do as a favour.)
October 2021. I honestly fail to see how that is not clear?Looking at https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emissio... I see the following:
To help improve air quality, an Ultra Low Emission Zone (ULEZ) will be in place in central London from 8 April 2019.
Reading a bit further, I see:
From 25 October 2021 the area will be expanded to the inner London area bounded by the North and South Circular roads. [...] Residents who are registered for the residents' Congestion Charge discount will get a 100% ULEZ discount until 24 October 2021 to give them more time to change their vehicle to meet the ULEZ standards.
I live (just) outside the expanded ULEZ zone, on the south side of the South Circular. At present, I make a lot of journeys in my Euro 3 diesel to see friends in Dulwich, on the north side of the South Circular and within the expanded ULEZ zone. (I am generally carrying a lot of heavy equipment to their house, so yes I do need to drive. I am also aware of the foolishness of using a diesel for short journies etc. etc.)
Question is: when will I need to start paying £12.50 each time I go to see them - April 2019 or October 2021? This is absolutely critical - seeing as the worst-case scenario is that this charge hits thousands of vehicles in 11 months time.
(The chances are I probably won't go to see them, much as I love them, or at least will slum it via two buses and a half mile walk and won't take them the DIY equipment I currently do as a favour.)
MaxSo said:
October 2021. I honestly fail to see how that is not clear?
I refer to this:To help improve air quality, an Ultra Low Emission Zone (ULEZ) will be in place in central London from 8 April 2019.
What is this - something different from the T-Charge which has been in place for some months now?
What do they mean by 'Central London' - the exact area covered by the existing Congestion Charging and T-Charge zone?
This is indeed not clear. Probably intentionally so.
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