V6 engine project
Discussion
Hi just spotted this thread whilst surfing for v6 duratec info.
As it happens I'm in the middle of fitting a 3.0 V6 Duratec out of a 2001 Jag s/type into my Esprit at the moment.
I was actually looking to ask Marquis Rex about how to set up the vvt as he seems to have had a lot of experience with these engines.
I'm using a megasquirt for engine management and was wondering at what kind of rev range does the vvt need to be advanced or retarded.I believe its not fully variable but just an on or off type of setup but have no idea myself generaly where a good starting point would be.
I was thinking that maybe the vvt system might run in conjunction with the variable inlet system, as I believe that they are both used for better torque delivery throughout the rev range but as the jag inlet manifold is to high to fit under the rear hatch I'll probably be trying a couple of different options for induction.
I'll try to include a pic to show you how it looks at the moment
As it happens I'm in the middle of fitting a 3.0 V6 Duratec out of a 2001 Jag s/type into my Esprit at the moment.
I was actually looking to ask Marquis Rex about how to set up the vvt as he seems to have had a lot of experience with these engines.
I'm using a megasquirt for engine management and was wondering at what kind of rev range does the vvt need to be advanced or retarded.I believe its not fully variable but just an on or off type of setup but have no idea myself generaly where a good starting point would be.
I was thinking that maybe the vvt system might run in conjunction with the variable inlet system, as I believe that they are both used for better torque delivery throughout the rev range but as the jag inlet manifold is to high to fit under the rear hatch I'll probably be trying a couple of different options for induction.
I'll try to include a pic to show you how it looks at the moment
I don't know which variant exactly a 2001 Model year engine is- as I worked in R and D so I was working on the V6 with continuously variable cam timing long before they came out in the field.
If what you say is true- and the engne is running the older P-Tec engine management (the later engines ran Denso engine management system). With the two stage cam phasor- map the engine fully advanced from 1000 rpm WOT until 5000 rpm and the go fully retarded for the remaining 2000 rpm.
These are the figures that work well with the Variable resonance inlet manifold- which runs Both-valves closed up to about 3250 rpm, then "long tube open-short closed" up to 4000 rpm, then Both open up to 5000 rpm, sofar all using the fully advanced cam position, then for the last 2000 rpm go both valves closed and run full retarded cam phasing.
If you're not running the variable resonance inlet system- the reccommended cam phasing won't be optimised but will represent a good starting point.
Fully advanced cam position is 30 degrees advanced. Fully retarded runs a maximum opening point (peak lift) of 122 ATDC.
At idle and when starting the engine- you want to minimise overlap- so run fully retarded. For good fuel economy at part load- you might want to run full advanced and increase over lap to maximise EGR.
Don't forget to add some sort of hyteresis to the switching points - so that the switching point is different when going UP the rev range or load than going DOWN for instance- or else things could wear very quickly if you happen to be driving at a change over point continually.
Good Luck!
If what you say is true- and the engne is running the older P-Tec engine management (the later engines ran Denso engine management system). With the two stage cam phasor- map the engine fully advanced from 1000 rpm WOT until 5000 rpm and the go fully retarded for the remaining 2000 rpm.
These are the figures that work well with the Variable resonance inlet manifold- which runs Both-valves closed up to about 3250 rpm, then "long tube open-short closed" up to 4000 rpm, then Both open up to 5000 rpm, sofar all using the fully advanced cam position, then for the last 2000 rpm go both valves closed and run full retarded cam phasing.
If you're not running the variable resonance inlet system- the reccommended cam phasing won't be optimised but will represent a good starting point.
Fully advanced cam position is 30 degrees advanced. Fully retarded runs a maximum opening point (peak lift) of 122 ATDC.
At idle and when starting the engine- you want to minimise overlap- so run fully retarded. For good fuel economy at part load- you might want to run full advanced and increase over lap to maximise EGR.
Don't forget to add some sort of hyteresis to the switching points - so that the switching point is different when going UP the rev range or load than going DOWN for instance- or else things could wear very quickly if you happen to be driving at a change over point continually.
Good Luck!
Edited by Marquis_Rex on Tuesday 20th February 13:12
Will a V6 be enough tho'?
Here is an interesting Esprit project under way!
www.motorgeek.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=9648
Regards
Spunagain
Here is an interesting Esprit project under way!
www.motorgeek.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=9648
Regards
Spunagain
thats a smart looking Jag V6 there Andrew, I take thats the venerable old UN1 box?
How much was it? What sort of power will you get and what did you have to do to make it fit?
Also, it looks like it was a transverse mounted lump before, what will the cam tower on the other side look like?
Good luck anyway, post up some more pictures if possible.
How much was it? What sort of power will you get and what did you have to do to make it fit?
Also, it looks like it was a transverse mounted lump before, what will the cam tower on the other side look like?
Good luck anyway, post up some more pictures if possible.
cross-eyed-twit said:
thats a smart looking Jag V6 there Andrew, I take thats the venerable old UN1 box?
How much was it? What sort of power will you get and what did you have to do to make it fit?
Also, it looks like it was a transverse mounted lump before, what will the cam tower on the other side look like?
Good luck anyway, post up some more pictures if possible.
How much was it? What sort of power will you get and what did you have to do to make it fit?
Also, it looks like it was a transverse mounted lump before, what will the cam tower on the other side look like?
Good luck anyway, post up some more pictures if possible.
I'm not sure it was a transverse unit- the reasons being-
1) as mounted in the X type- the transverse engines had a Rear end accessory drive to drive the water pump-which I don't see on the behind of the rear left cam cover and
2) if what punky says is correct and it is a two stage earlier X200 P-Tec engine- this earlier engine was never fitted to the X type transversely- only the later ones were
3) The exhaust manifolds look are the RWD longitudinal items
I'll happily be corrected though
Many thanks M.R. for the reply.
I'm on quite a steep learning curve at the moment and a little short of knowledge in the engine coversion department as this is my first one.Im pretty good with nuts and bolts and the engineering side of things but my brother in law will be looking after the engine management part as auto electronics and engine tuning are definatly not my forte. I'm just trying to get as much Info as I can along the way to help him out a bit.
I might need to fire a few more questions at you from time to time If thats ok with you.
Yeah! I've been watching Hillys progress with the V8 on LEF which is where I originaly posted mine.He's been doing some excellent machining work on the gear linkage stuff.can't wait to see it running.
I'm happy with the V6 though,its quite a small, compact and lightweight unit and I have it pretty much sripped down to the basics.Power wise in standard form its just shy of 240 bhp and with no cats, a straight through Esprit V8 sports exhaust all the auxillary pumps removed off the front and eventually ITB's and a well tuned engine management system then I suppose your guess is as good as mine, or possibly even better, but if I can get around 260 or 270 to start with I'll be happy.
I've also got the option of swapping it with the 3.5 version when they become more available.
I paid £800 for the engine with 60k on it which aparently is barely run in, it seemed in good nick and the oil was clean but I wont know for sure until I start her up I guess.
There were a few jobs to get it in, The s/type it came out of is inline,Its the x/type thats transverse mounted but this meant I had to change the sump due to the fact that the original Jag sump is a bit front heavy "size wise" and fouled one of the engine bay lower crossmembers, so I fitted the sump and oil pickup pipe from a V6 mondeo which was a straight swap and no real problem, I'll just have to watch oil levels to begin with as its a fairly smaller sump, but fits in the engine bay perfectly.
Not sure what to do with the cam towers,Possibly paint them red the same as the lotus engine that came out, or maybe both black or both silver or even yellow, not sure,and I've been thinking about making some carbon fibre cover strips to go over the coil units that are fitted on the plugs,which should tidy it up a bit.
At the moment I'm waiting for the engineering shop to do the adapter plate which started with a lead time of 2 weeks which has now turned into 3 weeks and might end up being 4 due to a backlog of work and means I can't get the engine and gearbox mounts finished, so am a bit frustrated with it all at the moment.once thats done I have to find a suitable clutch release bearing,plumb in the fuel system,cooling system,exhaust,wiring and ecu, and finish off the induction system MK1,and a few other bits and pieces.So a couple of months to go yet I expect.
Oh and yes its a good ole'UN1 gearbox
Phew! my fingers are aching after all that
and a few more pics
. I'm on quite a steep learning curve at the moment and a little short of knowledge in the engine coversion department as this is my first one.Im pretty good with nuts and bolts and the engineering side of things but my brother in law will be looking after the engine management part as auto electronics and engine tuning are definatly not my forte. I'm just trying to get as much Info as I can along the way to help him out a bit.
I might need to fire a few more questions at you from time to time If thats ok with you.
Yeah! I've been watching Hillys progress with the V8 on LEF which is where I originaly posted mine.He's been doing some excellent machining work on the gear linkage stuff.can't wait to see it running.
I'm happy with the V6 though,its quite a small, compact and lightweight unit and I have it pretty much sripped down to the basics.Power wise in standard form its just shy of 240 bhp and with no cats, a straight through Esprit V8 sports exhaust all the auxillary pumps removed off the front and eventually ITB's and a well tuned engine management system then I suppose your guess is as good as mine, or possibly even better, but if I can get around 260 or 270 to start with I'll be happy.
I've also got the option of swapping it with the 3.5 version when they become more available.
I paid £800 for the engine with 60k on it which aparently is barely run in, it seemed in good nick and the oil was clean but I wont know for sure until I start her up I guess.
There were a few jobs to get it in, The s/type it came out of is inline,Its the x/type thats transverse mounted but this meant I had to change the sump due to the fact that the original Jag sump is a bit front heavy "size wise" and fouled one of the engine bay lower crossmembers, so I fitted the sump and oil pickup pipe from a V6 mondeo which was a straight swap and no real problem, I'll just have to watch oil levels to begin with as its a fairly smaller sump, but fits in the engine bay perfectly.
Not sure what to do with the cam towers,Possibly paint them red the same as the lotus engine that came out, or maybe both black or both silver or even yellow, not sure,and I've been thinking about making some carbon fibre cover strips to go over the coil units that are fitted on the plugs,which should tidy it up a bit.
At the moment I'm waiting for the engineering shop to do the adapter plate which started with a lead time of 2 weeks which has now turned into 3 weeks and might end up being 4 due to a backlog of work and means I can't get the engine and gearbox mounts finished, so am a bit frustrated with it all at the moment.once thats done I have to find a suitable clutch release bearing,plumb in the fuel system,cooling system,exhaust,wiring and ecu, and finish off the induction system MK1,and a few other bits and pieces.So a couple of months to go yet I expect.
Oh and yes its a good ole'UN1 gearbox
Phew! my fingers are aching after all that
and a few more pics
Edited by punky on Tuesday 20th February 19:15
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