Coming Soon - Roman Legions v US Marines and...
Discussion
FourWheelDrift said:
But we all know after seeing the Terminator films only living matter can go back in time.
In the comics from the 90s they solved that problem in a rather clever - if gruesome - way. The terminators took back prisoners who had had guns surgically implanted in their body cavities. Once back in the past they were ripped open to get at the guns.FourWheelDrift said:
Zod said:
f course they'd find it. They'd easily work out their position using the sun, stars, maps and a compass.
To know where it is they will need to know where they were first. They have been sent back in time, they wouldn't even know what country they were in least of all that they have travelled in time. All they would see would be fields the odd building and a few people talking an odd language. They'd probably think it was modern day Iraqistan or Iraninstan, ask where the nearest McDonalds is then lose half their men in friendly fire incidents. They don't carry maps of all the countries of the world everywhere they go, only those of the country they are invading or the USA to help them find there way home, being sent randomly back to Italy might mean they don't have maps of Italy on them.Zod said:
What? Even without a map, they could work out from the position of the stars where they were!
Stars move, the night sky would not look the same back then."In the Roman era, the celestial pole was about equally distant from α Ursae Minoris (Cynosura) and β Ursae Minoris (Kochab). Before this, during the 1st millennium BC, β Ursae Minoris was the bright star closest to the celestial pole, but it was never close enough to be taken as marking the pole, and the Greek navigator Pytheas in ca. 320 BC described the celestial pole as devoid of stars. Polaris was described as "always visible" by Stobaeus in the 5th century, when it was still removed from the celestial pole by about 8°. It was known as scip-steorra ("ship-star") in 10th-century Anglo-Saxon England, reflecting its use in navigation."
I very much doubt US Marines could read stars anyway, since they rely on GPS these days, radio, satellite comms and orders from HQ as they are usually dropped into a location they know and have plans to follow and maps to read.
FourWheelDrift said:
Zod said:
What? Even without a map, they could work out from the position of the stars where they were!
Stars move, the night sky would not look the same back then."In the Roman era, the celestial pole was about equally distant from α Ursae Minoris (Cynosura) and β Ursae Minoris (Kochab). Before this, during the 1st millennium BC, β Ursae Minoris was the bright star closest to the celestial pole, but it was never close enough to be taken as marking the pole, and the Greek navigator Pytheas in ca. 320 BC described the celestial pole as devoid of stars. Polaris was described as "always visible" by Stobaeus in the 5th century, when it was still removed from the celestial pole by about 8°. It was known as scip-steorra ("ship-star") in 10th-century Anglo-Saxon England, reflecting its use in navigation."
I very much doubt US Marines could read stars anyway, since they rely on GPS these days, radio, satellite comms and orders from HQ as they are usually dropped into a location they know and have plans to follow and maps to read.
Zod said:
FourWheelDrift said:
Zod said:
What? Even without a map, they could work out from the position of the stars where they were!
Stars move, the night sky would not look the same back then."In the Roman era, the celestial pole was about equally distant from α Ursae Minoris (Cynosura) and β Ursae Minoris (Kochab). Before this, during the 1st millennium BC, β Ursae Minoris was the bright star closest to the celestial pole, but it was never close enough to be taken as marking the pole, and the Greek navigator Pytheas in ca. 320 BC described the celestial pole as devoid of stars. Polaris was described as "always visible" by Stobaeus in the 5th century, when it was still removed from the celestial pole by about 8°. It was known as scip-steorra ("ship-star") in 10th-century Anglo-Saxon England, reflecting its use in navigation."
I very much doubt US Marines could read stars anyway, since they rely on GPS these days, radio, satellite comms and orders from HQ as they are usually dropped into a location they know and have plans to follow and maps to read.
Zod said:
tars move over thousands of years. They do not move far in terms of our perception. So less than 300 years ago the stars would not have been so different that it would not have been possible to work out with an acceptable degree of accuracy where you were. The idea that nobody in a large force of Marines would have a clue how to work out his position from the stars is highly improbable.
300 years? We're talking the Roman Empire here, between 27 BC – AD 476.Why do you think the US Marines would have a need to train it's soldiers to read the stars? Any time in training other than physical exercise water survival and practising to kill would be learning the systems and technology they use today.
rhinochopig said:
SF possibly, but I'd be amazed if your basic US marine could.
Indeed. Why on earth would you teach your grunts Celestial Navigation when they are all issued with GPS units? For much the same reason you'd teach them how to hunt with a bow and arrow; you wouldn't. As you say, Special Forces perhaps. But not ordinary grunts.
FourWheelDrift said:
Zod said:
tars move over thousands of years. They do not move far in terms of our perception. So less than 300 years ago the stars would not have been so different that it would not have been possible to work out with an acceptable degree of accuracy where you were. The idea that nobody in a large force of Marines would have a clue how to work out his position from the stars is highly improbable.
300 years? We're talking the Roman Empire here, between 27 BC – AD 476.Why do you think the US Marines would have a need to train it's soldiers to read the stars? Any time in training other than physical exercise water survival and practising to kill would be learning the systems and technology they use today.
I have no more idea than you of the training of US Marines, but I cannot believe that they do not learn how to navigate in hostlie territory without GPS or a map.
Forget Navigation by the Stars, waste of time anyway.
Most people can understand Sun rises in the East and sets in the west. From that you can make a fairly accurate compass estimation.
This only works if you have a clear direction of travel in mind.
I doubt 99% of the population could be put down on the surface of the planet and tell you which country they are in by looking at the stars. (heck even in the UK, look at 18:00 and again at 06:00 - tell me you would know which way was which)
Most people can understand Sun rises in the East and sets in the west. From that you can make a fairly accurate compass estimation.
This only works if you have a clear direction of travel in mind.
I doubt 99% of the population could be put down on the surface of the planet and tell you which country they are in by looking at the stars. (heck even in the UK, look at 18:00 and again at 06:00 - tell me you would know which way was which)
Eerr any military training worth it's salt will include lots and lots of orienteering even during basic training as it's still done in a very traditional way so I'd be VERY surprised if the US Marines didn't have similar.
Just because they have access to multi million dollar GPS systems, doesn't mean they hand them out like candy to trainees. They will have spent many many hours humping through forests with nothing more complicated then a compass to guide them and the snipers\recon teams which are a part of any decent sized MEU will have had even more specialised training.
They also have helicopters and the author has specified they have enough fuel to last them for a few months. They aren't going to get lost (or maybe they are, they are American's after all)
Just because they have access to multi million dollar GPS systems, doesn't mean they hand them out like candy to trainees. They will have spent many many hours humping through forests with nothing more complicated then a compass to guide them and the snipers\recon teams which are a part of any decent sized MEU will have had even more specialised training.
They also have helicopters and the author has specified they have enough fuel to last them for a few months. They aren't going to get lost (or maybe they are, they are American's after all)
Guvernator said:
Eerr any military training worth it's salt will include lots and lots of orienteering even during basic training as it's still done in a very traditional way so I'd be VERY surprised if the US Marines didn't have similar.
Just because they have access to multi million dollar GPS systems, doesn't mean they hand them out like candy to trainees. They will have spent many many hours humping through forests with nothing more complicated then a compass to guide them and the snipers\recon teams which are a part of any decent sized MEU will have had even more specialised training.
To do that they would need maps, they only get maps of the area they are dropped into. Giving them maps of every country in the world just in case they might go there there would not be a useful use of resources. Being randomly dropped into Italy would mean they would most likely not have maps of the country. They would have a compass but they would not know how to read the stars as has been suggested.Just because they have access to multi million dollar GPS systems, doesn't mean they hand them out like candy to trainees. They will have spent many many hours humping through forests with nothing more complicated then a compass to guide them and the snipers\recon teams which are a part of any decent sized MEU will have had even more specialised training.
If you got dropped unexpectedly into an unknown foreign country with no idea where it is, no road signs, no one who can translate the local language and no map I'd like you to find the capital city with just a compass and the sun.
Edited by FourWheelDrift on Thursday 17th January 16:21
FourWheelDrift said:
To do that they would need maps, they only get maps of the area they are dropped into. Giving them maps of every country in the world just in case they might go there there would not be a useful use of resources. Being randomly dropped into Italy would mean they would most likely not have maps of the country. They would have a compass but they would not know how to read the stars as has been suggested.
You keep asserting that with no basis for the assertion. Three are 2000 Marines here. They are trained to navigate without GPS or maps, albeit generally starting out knowing which country they are in. The chances that not one of them could work out where they are seem slim to me.ETA I have no such training, but I can use a compass and I would be able to speak to the locals, given I remember much of the Latin I learned at school and speak fluent French and German and enough Spanish and Italian to get by on holiday. I therefore would ask where we were and whcih way to Rome. There could even be one amongst the 200 Marines with similar skills to mine!
EagainTA One of them might even have a quaint old pocket diary with maps in it. A commander might even possess a world atlas amongs his effects. Just imagine the chance that one in 2000 might actually have a book of maps. Not really so unlikely, is it?
Edited by Zod on Thursday 17th January 16:37
If I was in charge of the Roman's, we would win, no question. Simply because a Marine unit of 2000 troops and associated vehicles do not carry enough ammunition to kill 330,000 people. Armed with that knowledge, I'd just keep attacking them until they ran out of ammunition. Game Over.
However, if the Romans weren't aware of this, I'd imagine that they'd give up after 2 or 3 legions were wiped out before they even had a chance to bring any arms too bare.
However, if the Romans weren't aware of this, I'd imagine that they'd give up after 2 or 3 legions were wiped out before they even had a chance to bring any arms too bare.
Surely a good commander would do as the one in the reddit post does...make peace.. Mindful of the effect on history, the risks to his men,etc, surely better to help the natives, and advance civilisation by centuries.
Of course in the film they will all be gung ho heroes who can kill everyone
Of course in the film they will all be gung ho heroes who can kill everyone
TEKNOPUG said:
If I was in charge of the Roman's, we would win, no question. Simply because a Marine unit of 2000 troops and associated vehicles do not carry enough ammunition to kill 330,000 people. Armed with that knowledge, I'd just keep attacking them until they ran out of ammunition. Game Over.
However, if the Romans weren't aware of this, I'd imagine that they'd give up after 2 or 3 legions were wiped out before they even had a chance to bring any arms too bare.
Exactly, I go back to my point that it would all boil down to psychology. IF the Roman's managed to work out that these strangers who just appeared from nowhere where merely men with advanced weapons and IF they also managed to work out that those weapons needed to be loaded with "arrows", then they might decide to commit to large scale attack BUT those are very big asks IMO. However, if the Romans weren't aware of this, I'd imagine that they'd give up after 2 or 3 legions were wiped out before they even had a chance to bring any arms too bare.
Firstly they have no idea what a gun is or that it has a finite amount of bullets, all they know from first hand experience is that these strangers have weapons\magic thunder sticks that can literally take them apart before they've got within a thousand yards. Also do not underestimate the noise that 2000 marines firing fully automatic weapons, grenades and rockets would make. The Roman's would literally believe the gates of hell had opened up on them.
Even if somehow they were able to get over this, do not underestimate the fact that literally thousands of them will be cut to pieces, it's easy to say they'd only loose 100,000 of those 330,000 but what if you are one of those 100,000 on the front lines. I don't think people seem to understand the psychological impact of seeing thousands of your mates being shot to pieces, armies have been routed with a lost less than 10% total casualties and that's armies who know about modern firearms like the rifle, imagine a civilisation that doesn't even know what gun is, they might as well be cavemen rather than Romans for all the difference it makes.
Again my guess would be that they'd be running for the hills after the first major clash, there simply would not be the protracted assault where they poor in thousands of men to their deaths that people seem to think there would be due to basic human psychology. Hell half the population would sh*t their pants and bow in prayer to their Gods at the first sight of the "flying metal dragon" in the sky before a shot was even fired.
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