RE: Ineos Grenadier may be built in France
Discussion
maffski said:
French labour laws will be why they are looking at it. As long as they are willing to keep it going with at least some of the existing staff then Daimler are required to sell them the site at almost any price.
So they get a larger, better equipped, factory that's only a couple of hundred miles from their engine supplier. Not only that, but they get it quicker.
Hmmmm, so basically a ready made factory and workforce........ for basically nothing, vs having to start from scratch in a greenfield site......So they get a larger, better equipped, factory that's only a couple of hundred miles from their engine supplier. Not only that, but they get it quicker.
Yes, this is definitely a Brexit based decision. Definitely.
chelme said:
I'd be very interested to know whether the Company is HQ'd here in the UK. I have a suspicion, even the company is based abroad.
My theory is that the decision as to where to engineer the vehicle was based on the availability of skilled personel and knowledge, as it seems, was the decision as to where to assemble the vehicles.
Had the UK had a large, and importantly, a home grown vehicle manufacturing sector that proved itself over time to be innovative and able to evolve as part of a successful export led economy, I am certain the decision to engineer and assemble the vehicle in the UK would have come as second nature, despite Brexit.
The reality is that whilst the UK is the 8th largest manufacturer (in general, not just cars) in the world, a whopping 40% of that is foreign owned. The historical knowledge and experience of implementing this huge exercise has, since the 80's been eroded. We can speak of Nissan and Honda here in the UK for example, however all the conceptual thinking and implementation of how to manufacture and be efficient at this, not to mention new ideas being brought forward and to be innovative is highly likely to come from Japan and and even if great ideas came from British thinkers within the company, the owner of this knowledge is a company or person abroad.
And then there is the faith and confidence and I suspect this is lacking too for the historical reasons I merely touched on above.
Whilst in certain industries the UK may lead, this is one where we could learn a lot from others.
The question is have we, or will we? These questions have been asked for some time now going back the 80s, but I have not seen many new homegrown British brands enter the market...there is McLaren, which is good.
Its not as if I am taking pleasure in speaking of this either. However this is a recurring theme and I'd like to know why, out of interest.
Anyone who disagrees or takes a different view, I'm all for meaningful contributions.
Worth noting that the Nissan European Technology Centre is a major force on the world stage; a lot of JP-produced product has been designed in the North East. But you're right that the resultant IP is very definitely JP-owned.My theory is that the decision as to where to engineer the vehicle was based on the availability of skilled personel and knowledge, as it seems, was the decision as to where to assemble the vehicles.
Had the UK had a large, and importantly, a home grown vehicle manufacturing sector that proved itself over time to be innovative and able to evolve as part of a successful export led economy, I am certain the decision to engineer and assemble the vehicle in the UK would have come as second nature, despite Brexit.
The reality is that whilst the UK is the 8th largest manufacturer (in general, not just cars) in the world, a whopping 40% of that is foreign owned. The historical knowledge and experience of implementing this huge exercise has, since the 80's been eroded. We can speak of Nissan and Honda here in the UK for example, however all the conceptual thinking and implementation of how to manufacture and be efficient at this, not to mention new ideas being brought forward and to be innovative is highly likely to come from Japan and and even if great ideas came from British thinkers within the company, the owner of this knowledge is a company or person abroad.
And then there is the faith and confidence and I suspect this is lacking too for the historical reasons I merely touched on above.
Whilst in certain industries the UK may lead, this is one where we could learn a lot from others.
The question is have we, or will we? These questions have been asked for some time now going back the 80s, but I have not seen many new homegrown British brands enter the market...there is McLaren, which is good.
Its not as if I am taking pleasure in speaking of this either. However this is a recurring theme and I'd like to know why, out of interest.
Anyone who disagrees or takes a different view, I'm all for meaningful contributions.
Edited by chelme on Tuesday 7th July 13:16
Stuart70 said:
InitialDave said:
Condi said:
How can he build a plant here, with no idea what if any costs are involved with shipping parts from the EU to the UK and then completed cars back again? The EU is the obvious choice and always will be because even if they agree 0 tariffs, that can change with a change of the wind.
If he hadn't been a supporter of Brexit, with all the above being blatantly obvious beforehand, I would agree with you.But he was, and it was, so my attitude is somewhat one of he helped make this bed, and he should bloody well lie in it.
king off and building his factory somewhere he could make money.More fool the other idiots who voted for Brexit... believing him that there was a bright new manufacturing future in Britain.
Ares said:
Aside from he supported Brexit (and being the richest guy in GB, and being British, and being self-made, and having most of his business interests in Britain), this isn't immediately anything to do with Brexit.
But the more you and every loony-left commentator/Brexiteer/Lefty press criticise him and his every move, the more he will wave too fingers at our shores. And who could blame him.
Brexit will be damaging in some degree to our country....but nothing like as damaging as blind hatred and ignorance so rife within our population.
Only a small minority (less than 15%) of INEOS's business is in the UK. And all the profit of the group goes to a chap who resides in Monaco. How much benefit do you really think INEOS brings to the UK?But the more you and every loony-left commentator/Brexiteer/Lefty press criticise him and his every move, the more he will wave too fingers at our shores. And who could blame him.
Brexit will be damaging in some degree to our country....but nothing like as damaging as blind hatred and ignorance so rife within our population.
Plymo said:
Could there be a hint here of fishing for some (UK or Welsh) government money here? The Welsh government in particular likes to give lots of money to create jobs that never seem to appear
The Daimler option gives him a bargaining chip Vs the Welsh government. All manufacturers do this to get the biggest handout they can.More generally I would argue that countries like Germany have always taken care to support their manufacturing industries (going back to helpful tax policies introduced by Erhard to assist the recovery of Germany post WW2). By contrast UK governments of all persuasions have tended to be more careless or ideologically driven; they have certainly used the industry as a tax cash cow - causing great damage during the purchase tax era and these days doing their best to put JLR out of business with their taxes on new vehicles.
It is also true that all manufacturers of any significant scale need to locate their manufacturing operations close to their markets. To rely solely on exports opens them (and certainly JLR) to currency risks against which the best defence is to sell premium priced products so that FX costs can either be absorbed in margins or passed onto customers who value brand values over low price. Range Rover is a prime example. It is the reason it was originally launched in the USA as a luxury product with pricing to match.
DonkeyApple said:
oldtimer2 said:
You filed this under "British cars". If this change goes ahead the only British bits will be its name (Grenadier) and knock off looks (Defender 110).
Grenadier is a French word. 
and IIRC the Grenadier Guards is a very British regiment. It is one of those words appropriated by the English language.maffski said:
W12AAM said:
And if it does go to France...I hope he will be faced with French working practices of a short week, long holidays, bad workmanship & strikes and other industrial rest, which will be karma for not building it in the UK !
French labour laws will be why they are looking at it. As long as they are willing to keep it going with at least some of the existing staff then Daimler are required to sell them the site at almost any price.So they get a larger, better equipped, factory that's only a couple of hundred miles from their engine supplier. Not only that, but they get it quicker.
Daimler sure didn’t build it there to take advantage of superior French labour. :
From Jim’s perspective it’s got to be tempting to be able to helicopter direct from the boat or brothel to Hambach than the hassle of needing a private jet and all the transport links to get to Wales? Also, having to visit Wales could be a bit of an issue re the 90 day rule?
This is the kind of decision that reminds you people like Jim Ratcliffe are just out for themselves.
Picks up a load of national assets on the cheap.
Gets rich
Gets knighted
Campaigns for Brexit
Goes to live in Monaco to avoid tax
Leads everyone on about jobs here making his new motor...
Decides to build it in France
Makes it an easy decision for me to avoid the Grenadier.
Picks up a load of national assets on the cheap.
Gets rich
Gets knighted
Campaigns for Brexit
Goes to live in Monaco to avoid tax
Leads everyone on about jobs here making his new motor...
Decides to build it in France
Makes it an easy decision for me to avoid the Grenadier.
Oso said:
This is the kind of decision that reminds you people like Jim Ratcliffe are just out for themselves.
Picks up a load of national assets on the cheap.
Gets rich
Gets knighted
Campaigns for Brexit
Goes to live in Monaco to avoid tax
Leads everyone on about jobs here making his new motor...
Decides to build it in France
Makes it an easy decision for me to avoid the Grenadier.
Picks up a load of national assets on the cheap.
Gets rich
Gets knighted
Campaigns for Brexit
Goes to live in Monaco to avoid tax
Leads everyone on about jobs here making his new motor...
Decides to build it in France
Makes it an easy decision for me to avoid the Grenadier.
Like many I am seething with anger at yet another piece of hypocrisy by a Brexiteer. Any comment that I could make would be irrelevant amongst the erudite points made by others - I just wanted to add my small voice to the chorus.
As for the people of South Wales, my heart bleeds for them - they voted overwhelmingly for Brexit, and are getting their reward - I seethed equally when they had the gall to complain that they had been “betrayed” about the closure of the Ford engine plant in Bridgend post-Brexit.
As for the people of South Wales, my heart bleeds for them - they voted overwhelmingly for Brexit, and are getting their reward - I seethed equally when they had the gall to complain that they had been “betrayed” about the closure of the Ford engine plant in Bridgend post-Brexit.
skwdenyer said:
citizensm1th said:
Ces hautes terres ensoleillées ne sont évidemment pas au goût de M Inios
Sunlit uplands? More like the economics of the "shining city on a hill" so ably ripped-apart by Mario Cuomo oh so many years ago...Krikkit said:
Mr Brexit claims he wants to support people in the UK over Europe, as soon as one becomes available he sacks the UK off and moves production to the EU... What a blowhard.
He’s a massive blowhard and he is quick to move his companies and tax money out of the Uk when the government don’t let him have his own way. Yes it’s business but I saw this coming a mile off he’s a prick and car his look ste, he gets none of my money. kett said:
Oso said:
This is the kind of decision that reminds you people like Jim Ratcliffe are just out for themselves.
Picks up a load of national assets on the cheap.
Gets rich
Gets knighted
Campaigns for Brexit
Goes to live in Monaco to avoid tax
Leads everyone on about jobs here making his new motor...
Decides to build it in France
Makes it an easy decision for me to avoid the Grenadier.
Picks up a load of national assets on the cheap.
Gets rich
Gets knighted
Campaigns for Brexit
Goes to live in Monaco to avoid tax
Leads everyone on about jobs here making his new motor...
Decides to build it in France
Makes it an easy decision for me to avoid the Grenadier.
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