Discussion
Strangely Brown said:
otolith said:
carlo996 said:
Sounds like your problem to be honest.
Yeah. I might just start to observe whether there’s a tall car behind me and position my car incorrectly so that they have to wait. Make it their problem. I've certainly done that with lorries, and when you are in that position you want to get a move on so you aren't sat in a tiny car, potentially in a lorry driver's blindspot.
Strangely Brown said:
mwstewart said:
No, it isn't the fault of the driver behind, it's a genuine issue - modern cars of all kinds, but especially SUVs - take up a hell of a lot of carriageway. It isn't a case of following too close, it's simply that these things are so large that more often than not there is a genuine detriment to long distance visibility.
You really need to go away and think about what you have written. Take the blinkers off and try looking at some dimensions.A selection of current cars (which are also huge compared to even 10 years ago)
A selection of SUVs
Width
UK Minimums
A road spec width 4,100mm - we have many of those.
Parking space dimensions: 4,800mm x 2,400mm
Passing a cyclist at 30 mph: 1,500mm
Passing a cyclist at over 30 mph: 2,000mm
It doesn't take too much thought to consider how the dimensions of SUVs just do not suit large swathes of our non-commercial road based infrastructure.
Height
As a rough average we have 330mm / 33cm of additional height between the cars and SUVs. Calculating line of sight with an eye height of 330mm / 33cm of height results in a 20.5m line of sight. Average car length is, what 4,500mm / 4.5m? Close to that. This means that in order to negate the additional height of the average SUV a following driver must be an additional four and a half car lengths further back than usual in order to retain good forward visibility.
What do you think that does for congestion? Or the ability to safely overtake (never mind the width also contributing to the issue)? Or the mind-set of following impatient drivers who will become frustrated and try overtake to close the excessive gap? Add in the fact that the line of sight formula is based on a perfect horizontal so gradients not in favour of the following vehicle really make things bad indeed.
Note: I've read arguments that "you're not a good driver - there are trucks and vans on the road". The answer is that the proportion of traffic that is now of commercial vehicle size is vastly higher than it was because of the prevalence of SUVs.
Other concerns
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_sport_u...
- Study showing that drivers of SUV type vehicles are more oblivious to speed https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17114094/
- Tyre wear and pollution "Increased popularity of SUVs, larger and heavier than standard vehicles, exacerbates this problem – as does growing sales of - heavy EVs and widespread use of budget tyres" - https://www.emissionsanalytics.com/news/pollution-...
- More deadly than cars when striking pedestrians - USA study https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorzelany/2020/06/...
- More deadly than cars when striking pedestrians - German study http://www.ircobi.org/wordpress/downloads/irc12/pd...
- SUV headlamp height and its effect on other drivers - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/03/07/dazzli... and https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/motoring/moto...
I shouldn't have to write such a post to explain something that is so patently obvious. I have a supercar, which in 2022 most people will consider wasteful, noisy, stupid, and irrelevant. I'm not daft enough to think otherwise, but as drivers we should be at least aware of the effect our choices have on others and their perception of us.
Edited by mwstewart on Saturday 5th November 12:17
carlo996 said:
Why would anyone worry about a strangers perception, doesn’t sound like much fun?
Yes that's plain weird. I don't judge anyone by their choice of cars so I don't give a shyte how others may rightly or wrongly perceive me based on what car I happen to be driving.Particularly if one has several cars, should they be more aware of how some judgmental people perceive them in one car more than in another?
swisstoni said:
Strangely Brown said:
otolith said:
carlo996 said:
Sounds like your problem to be honest.
Yeah. I might just start to observe whether there’s a tall car behind me and position my car incorrectly so that they have to wait. Make it their problem. Strangely Brown said:
Funnily enough it's called exactly the same thing and if I see someone actively managing the space around their car then I applaud it. I would much rather have people around me who are actually thinking about what they are doing than those who blindly blast along in such a hurry that they cannot wait 10 seconds.
And all those years I thought people plonking their car in the middle of the junction had simply forgotten the junction positioning they were taught for their test!nickfrog said:
carlo996 said:
Why would anyone worry about a strangers perception, doesn’t sound like much fun?
Yes that's plain weird. I don't judge anyone by their choice of cars so I don't give a shyte how others may rightly or wrongly perceive me based on what car I happen to be driving.Particularly if one has several cars, should they be more aware of how some judgmental people perceive them in one car more than in another?
Fairly indicative of the confrontational attitude of a lot of road users though.
mwstewart said:
Height
As a rough average we have 330mm / 33cm of additional height between the cars and SUVs. Calculating line of sight with an eye height of 330mm / 33cm of height results in a 20.5m line of sight. Average car length is, what 4,500mm / 4.5m? Close to that. This means that in order to negate the additional height of the average SUV a following driver must be an additional four and a half car lengths further back than usual in order to retain good forward visibility.
Couple of questions, firstly what are you looking at that’s above the car in front? As a rough average we have 330mm / 33cm of additional height between the cars and SUVs. Calculating line of sight with an eye height of 330mm / 33cm of height results in a 20.5m line of sight. Average car length is, what 4,500mm / 4.5m? Close to that. This means that in order to negate the additional height of the average SUV a following driver must be an additional four and a half car lengths further back than usual in order to retain good forward visibility.
When I’m overtaking any vehicle I’m typically looking down the sides of it, trees and sky are of no interest.
Secondly, you said you drive a supercar. These are probably a similar amount lower than normal cars than an SUV is higher.
Do you drive 4-5 car lengths further back to see the sky properly when you’re behind a mini?
popeyewhite said:
nickfrog said:
carlo996 said:
Why would anyone worry about a strangers perception, doesn’t sound like much fun?
Yes that's plain weird. I don't judge anyone by their choice of cars so I don't give a shyte how others may rightly or wrongly perceive me based on what car I happen to be driving.Particularly if one has several cars, should they be more aware of how some judgmental people perceive them in one car more than in another?
Fairly indicative of the confrontational attitude of a lot of road users though.
otolith said:
Strangely Brown said:
Funnily enough it's called exactly the same thing and if I see someone actively managing the space around their car then I applaud it. I would much rather have people around me who are actually thinking about what they are doing than those who blindly blast along in such a hurry that they cannot wait 10 seconds.
And all those years I thought people plonking their car in the middle of the junction had simply forgotten the junction positioning they were taught for their test!It will depend on the junction and the other traffic. Sometimes it is safer to control the situation and other times not.
It depends.
Hint: The answer to any question about driving begins with the words, "It depends...".
popeyewhite said:
nickfrog said:
Not defensive nor confrontational. Sorry to hear that you perceive it that way though.
It's OK, plenty of others like you about. 
Still, the hatred for SUVs remains weird.
carlo996 said:
popeyewhite said:
mwstewart said:
...as drivers we should be at least aware of the effect our choices have on others and their perception of us.
This.
popeyewhite said:
mwstewart said:
...as drivers we should be at least aware of the effect our choices have on others and their perception of us.
This.People will smile and wave at me when I'm the 2cv, gawp and occasionally yell stupid s
t when I'm in the F430 and I've yet to encounter any open negativity in the FFRR although I dare say it'll induce some kind of response in a Waitrose car park. So yes, I am aware of how I may be perceived but life really is too short to fret on someone else's behalf.Edited by Spleen on Saturday 5th November 19:31
Speed addicted said:
Couple of questions, firstly what are you looking at that’s above the car in front?
When I’m overtaking any vehicle I’m typically looking down the sides of it, trees and sky are of no interest.
Secondly, you said you drive a supercar. These are probably a similar amount lower than normal cars than an SUV is higher.
Do you drive 4-5 car lengths further back to see the sky properly when you’re behind a mini?
The view of the road ahead: the level of visibility is determined not only by the width of the lead vehicle but its height - sight lines are possible over the top of the vehicle as well as beside it. It is of course possible to proceed with height blocked, but then often as not the increased width of an SUV comes into play.When I’m overtaking any vehicle I’m typically looking down the sides of it, trees and sky are of no interest.
Secondly, you said you drive a supercar. These are probably a similar amount lower than normal cars than an SUV is higher.
Do you drive 4-5 car lengths further back to see the sky properly when you’re behind a mini?
The question of my road position in a low car misses the point: its height or lack thereof doesn't impede other other motorists.
mwstewart said:
It's not a question of vanity but of self-awareness.
I am well aware that there are a lot of drivers on here, and amongst us, who write odd things to try and justify their own shortcomings. It's a question of being honest about your driving and seeking help when you need it.
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