Discussion
p1stonhead said:
Still doesn’t make any relevant point to how films work. Everything in any movie is to allow the main chatecter to do whatever they need to do.
In a superhero movie everything plot wise is merely a device to let the viewer enjoy the superhero's powers. Exactly what would you have in a Spiderman movie if Peter Parker never assumed the guise of his alter ego? Would anyone be interested in Batman vs Superman if they had no superhero powers? Of course not.
gregs656 said:
popeyewhite said:
Main characters don't generally fly, wear spandex, have Gods for parents, battle to save the Earth etc etc. The point I was making was the superhero WAS the plot and everything else is an excuse to let the superhero do his/her stuff 
.
Im not sure you understand what a plot is. .p1stonhead said:
He definitely does not.
No, in any case it is a bit of a weird criticism as if you take a reductionist approach to themes and plots it is easy to be dismissive of most stories and genres. I think the MCU has shown a sensitivity to fatigue though; they have fairly consistently mixed things up and introduced new themes - and with Phase 4 they are moving on to the small screen, introducing horror etc
gregs656 said:
p1stonhead said:
He definitely does not.
No, in any case it is a bit of a weird criticism as if you take a reductionist approach to themes and plots it is easy to be dismissive of most stories and genres. I think the MCU has shown a sensitivity to fatigue though; they have fairly consistently mixed things up and introduced new themes - and with Phase 4 they are moving on to the small screen, introducing horror etc
There's no reductionism you wazzock, any superhero movie is just a device to let the audience enjoy the escapism. If you think there's a more profound layer you're delusional.
popeyewhite said:
Reductionist? You think superhero movies are complex?
There's no reductionism you wazzock, any superhero movie is just a device to let the audience enjoy the escapism. If you think there's a more profound layer you're delusional.
You are being reductionist as you could say the same thing about any kind of fiction 'just escapism' and you can reduce down any horror, love story, thriller, comedy, 'life affirming', adventure movie, fantasy etc etc to a handful of plot points if you wanted to make your self look all smug and superior.There's no reductionism you wazzock, any superhero movie is just a device to let the audience enjoy the escapism. If you think there's a more profound layer you're delusional.
If you do want to do that, as you do for what ever reason, it helps if you understand some of the basic words like 'plot'.
MiniMan64 said:
I don’t understand how most of the criticisms being levelled at CB movies don’t apply to every movie?
Particularly as comic books usually take real life issues/ideas/problems and wrap them in a fantastical shell. Look at the two Spiderman movies, the first one is a John Hughes style high school comedy/drama, the second one is a Peter Parker movie with almost no Spiderman until the final third.The comments about box office earlier are a little weird considering they are effectively propping up a very sorry looking theatrical landscape at the moment. Dollar for dollar they may have dipped but the industry is fighting a huge change with streaming, it's pretty much Disney alone that is still consistently bringing in big audiences and keeping multiplexes busy. I'm at a (relatively popular) cinema twice a week on average and it's depressingly quiet for anything but superhero movies, Star Wars or Disney remakes. I think maybe Bohemian Rhapsody the last non Disney title to bring out non cinema folk.
ukaskew said:
Particularly as comic books usually take real life issues/ideas/problems and wrap them in a fantastical shell. Look at the two Spiderman movies, the first one is a John Hughes style high school comedy/drama, the second one is a Peter Parker movie with almost no Spiderman until the final third.
The comments about box office earlier are a little weird considering they are effectively propping up a very sorry looking theatrical landscape at the moment. Dollar for dollar they may have dipped but the industry is fighting a huge change with streaming, it's pretty much Disney alone that is still consistently bringing in big audiences and keeping multiplexes busy. I'm at a (relatively popular) cinema twice a week on average and it's depressingly quiet for anything but superhero movies, Star Wars or Disney remakes. I think maybe Bohemian Rhapsody the last non Disney title to bring out non cinema folk.
It is worth pointing out that many people, especially older ones, don't visit the cinema that often but do buy Blu Rays and/or subscribe to services like Netflix. So the market for more original big budget fare might be larger than you might think. The comments about box office earlier are a little weird considering they are effectively propping up a very sorry looking theatrical landscape at the moment. Dollar for dollar they may have dipped but the industry is fighting a huge change with streaming, it's pretty much Disney alone that is still consistently bringing in big audiences and keeping multiplexes busy. I'm at a (relatively popular) cinema twice a week on average and it's depressingly quiet for anything but superhero movies, Star Wars or Disney remakes. I think maybe Bohemian Rhapsody the last non Disney title to bring out non cinema folk.
p1stonhead said:
MiniMan64 said:
I don’t understand how most of the criticisms being levelled at CB movies don’t apply to every movie?
They do. In Saving Private Ryan for instance a number of the soldiers in Hanks platoon that filmgoers identify with die in combat, and often horribly. They do not suddenly overcome their inner demons/learn to live with themselves/accept their responsibilty. They do not fly away, summon a superpower or two or get saved by other superheroes. The plot is designed to bring home the horrors of loss, war and death to the viewer. But here's your chance - perhaps you could describe how the plot of your very average superhero movie would playout without the spandex and the superpowers. Would anyone even be remotely interested?
popeyewhite said:
No, they do not.
Yes they do. You mention Saving Private Ryan, which uses the same kind of themes and plot devices as many other war movies. Does that mean it is uninteresting or doesn't explore those themes in a different way to other war movies? Does that mean Saving Private Ryan shouldn't exist as a movie?
popeyewhite said:
p1stonhead said:
MiniMan64 said:
I don’t understand how most of the criticisms being levelled at CB movies don’t apply to every movie?
They do. In Saving Private Ryan for instance a number of the soldiers in Hanks platoon that filmgoers identify with die in combat, and often horribly. They do not suddenly overcome their inner demons/learn to live with themselves/accept their responsibilty. They do not fly away, summon a superpower or two or get saved by other superheroes. The plot is designed to bring home the horrors of loss, war and death to the viewer. But here's your chance - perhaps you could describe how the plot of your very average superhero movie would playout without the spandex and the superpowers. Would anyone even be remotely interested?
Or without Tom Hanks charecter?
Or without a war?
I call troll.
gregs656 said:
Yes they do.
Your mummy smells.gregs656 said:
You mention Saving Private Ryan, which uses the same kind of themes and plot devices as many other war movies. Does that mean it is uninteresting or doesn't explore those themes in a different way to other war movies? Does that mean Saving Private Ryan shouldn't exist as a movie?
Did I say superhero movies shouldn't exist? Show me where please.Thought not.
The Fast and Furious franchise is an interesting case. Very car culture focused at first, but that was never going to bring in the big money long term as it's far too niche. They went to full-blown action movie and then a step further into what are now essentially superhero movies. Hobbs & Shaw appears to be exactly that, unashamedly so in fact, they even have a genetically enhanced villain fighting the heroes with their super human strength.
popeyewhite said:
p1stonhead said:
MiniMan64 said:
I don’t understand how most of the criticisms being levelled at CB movies don’t apply to every movie?
They do. In Saving Private Ryan for instance a number of the soldiers in Hanks platoon that filmgoers identify with die in combat, and often horribly. They do not suddenly overcome their inner demons/learn to live with themselves/accept their responsibilty. They do not fly away, summon a superpower or two or get saved by other superheroes. The plot is designed to bring home the horrors of loss, war and death to the viewer. But here's your chance - perhaps you could describe how the plot of your very average superhero movie would playout without the spandex and the superpowers. Would anyone even be remotely interested?
Thor is a medieval war story of a son exiled from his kingdom to prove himself worthy of ruling to his father.
Thor 3 is a scifi drama of a man stuck on an alien world he doesn’t understand trying to escape and return home.
Iron Man 2 is a family story of a man copying with the pressure of his new position and alcoholism while discovering his family legacy is not what he thought.
Antman is a heist movie as a small time crook is hired for a job that turns out to be way bigger than he imagined.
MiniMan64 said:
popeyewhite said:
p1stonhead said:
MiniMan64 said:
I don’t understand how most of the criticisms being levelled at CB movies don’t apply to every movie?
They do. In Saving Private Ryan for instance a number of the soldiers in Hanks platoon that filmgoers identify with die in combat, and often horribly. They do not suddenly overcome their inner demons/learn to live with themselves/accept their responsibilty. They do not fly away, summon a superpower or two or get saved by other superheroes. The plot is designed to bring home the horrors of loss, war and death to the viewer. But here's your chance - perhaps you could describe how the plot of your very average superhero movie would playout without the spandex and the superpowers. Would anyone even be remotely interested?
Thor is a medieval war story of a son exiled from his kingdom to prove himself worthy of ruling to his father.
Thor 3 is a scifi drama of a man stuck on an alien world he doesn’t understand trying to escape and return home.
Iron Man 2 is a family story of a man copying with the pressure of his new position and alcoholism while discovering his family legacy is not what he thought.
Antman is a heist movie as a small time crook is hired for a job that turns out to be way bigger than he imagined.
The stories would all work without it being based around superhero’s.
In fact they’ve probably all been done hundreds of times each without superhero’s being part of it.
popeyewhite said:
p1stonhead said:
All of the MCU have good stories. That’s why they are popular.
As I've already pointed out, they're popular because they're undemanding and focus on a 'super-human'. There IS no story as the main plot is ANY tale surrounding a human with superpowers. It's simple escapism, and it's attraction won't last as there is no substance to any of it.p1stonhead said:
If it was just comic book movies, DC’s efforts would be popular too....
Like most people I have no idea of the difference between the two. Coronation St/Eastenders etc 
Personally I thought both Marvel and DC were something to do with kid's comics, is that not correct?
p1stonhead said:
If it was just comic book movies, DC’s efforts would be popular too....
Wonder Woman: $821mAquaman: $1.1b
Venom: $853m
Suicide Squad: $746m
Avengers movies aside, which is where the MCU really goes bonkers, the individual standalone movies are actually very, very similar in box office terms. Impressive considering the DC movies generally score lower (by any metric) in terms of quality. Aquaman took more money than Civil War!
Either way they are miles ahead of pretty much anything else. For comparison A Star is Born was a huge hit, that took $433m, Bohemian Rhapsody was a once-every-5-years breakout with long legs, that took $893m, still at the lower end of major superhero movies (4 superhero movies made more money in that year alone!)
Edited by ukaskew on Wednesday 24th July 23:01
Gassing Station | TV, Film, Streaming & Radio | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff