E36 (and E46) specs (can open, worms all over the floor...)

[Chris71]

Hi,

I'm seriously considering a 3-Series, but I'm slightly bewildered by the array to choose from, even at my £1,500ish budget. I know I want one of the six cylinder models and it needs to have folding rear seats (ruling out most of the E36 saloons, I understand?) but beyond that I'm open to suggestions.

As I understand it, the E46s are a bit more refined, but a bit less driver focused? ... Are there any major changes in performance or running costs for the various specs (i.e. E36 328 Vs E46 328 etc.) and does the road tax get expensive for the (later, and hence CO2-rated) E46s?

I've heard conflicting things on the performance/economy trade off. Some people seem to reckon the smaller sixes are almost as quick as the 328s and use significantly less fuel, whereas some say almost the opposite - comparable running costs and a decent increase in performance?

And then there's the various specs. Because of the folding seats I'm mainly looking at coupes (although a saloon or even a Touring might be an option). But - apart from the styling teaks - what do the various Sport and M-tech models actually add? And does the saloon drive differently to the coupe?

Basically, I'm all ears...

[fushion julz]

If you're looking at E36s and want a 6 cyl model then the options break down into 2 categories...
Early cars have the M50 iron block motor in either 2 litre (320i) or 2.5 litre (325i) options.
Later cars (post 95) have the M52 engine which has an alloy block...these come in 2litre (320i), 2.5litre (323i) or 2.8litre (328i) versions...
The 328, though, has the same power as the earlier 325 (plus a lttle more torque) due to a restrictive inlet manifold...there is a documented upgrade using an M50 inlet manifold to release an extra 30bhp or so from the 328 and can also be done on the 323 to give approx same power as the 325/328.
However, fuel consumption on all M52 engines is about the same in real world motoring and is only slightlt better than the earlier M50 cars.

Performance wise the 320s struggle a bit..the 325/328 is quick enough and the 323 isn't far away...But there is a world of diference in driving dynamics...the bigger motors have decent torque which makes them easy and relaxing as well as quick...a 328 with an M50 manifold and big bore throttle body giving circa 230bhp (up from 193bhp) is a quick car...a remap gets an extra 10-15bhp on top and improves consumption, too.

M50s are more reliable due to the iron block being more tolerant of abuse...Very early cars are non-vanos, later ones are single vanos and all M52s are single vanos...by the time of the E46 release the M52 became the M52TU (twin vanos) and later E46s have the M54 engines which are all twin vanos.

Coupes are different to saloons...They have a wider track but a less stiff bodyshell..weights are approx the same. Saloons are reputed to be the weapon of choice for a track car due to the extra stiffness...the BTCC cars were all saloons...Doubt it would make much difference to a road car, though...Saloon seats do not fold, though...That leaves either the coupes or the tourings (estates)...

The M-sport cars have exactly the same drivetrains...suspension is stiffer and slightly lower and they have the M3 style front and rear spoilers and sill covers. There is a 323 sport model that has LSD and a closer ratio gearbox...still has the same 170bhp motor, though.

A LSD is an option on all pre DSC+T cars...post 96 all 328s and most 323s come with DSC+T (easily spotted if you look at the throttle body)...deactivation button is in front of the gearstick/shift.

Trim wise a standard car would have manual windows, no sunroof and no aircon/climate and have cloth interior. SE models would have electric windows (front and rear on saloons/tourings), aircon, manual sunroof, front fogs, alloy wheels and 7-button computer/digital clock...M-sport models would have sports seats, alloys, front fogs & electric windows...
However, all options could be deleted and you could also add electric sunroof, heated mirrors, washers and seats, rear window blind (manual or electric), leather (standard or sports), lots of different wheel options, aircon or climate, full trip computer, wood dash inserts and a myriad of audio options...

Quite possible to find a car that has, for example, M-sport suspension but no bodykit, manual windows but electric sunroof and digital climate control!

Edited by fushion julz on Wednesday 21st September 12:29

[s m]

fushion julz said:

Saloon seats do not fold, though...That leaves either the coupes or the tourings (estates)...

Just to say that folding seats on a saloon is an option, albeit a rare one but they are out there.

I've had E46 and E36 variants with them.

If you're after the more refined drive get the E46, if you want something a little more involving maybe get an E36. I've got a saloon 328i

[Chris71]

I'm coming from a mk1 Focus (rather than anything particularly oppulent) so I'd imagine they'd both be a step up in refinement? Plus I figure I have to just admit that going for a relatively large engined RWD six cylinder coupe over the mass of sensible hatchbacks is largely about the fun factor, so maybe an E36 would be more suitable than an E46. I think at this budget a lot is about finding one in the right condition irrespective on age and, to a certain extent, even engine the exact model.

I'm off to see an E36 328 coupe tomorrow night and it sounds pretty promising, so we'll see how it goes...

[s m]

Chris71 said:

I'm coming from a mk1 Focus (rather than anything particularly oppulent) so I'd imagine they'd both be a step up in refinement? Plus I figure I have to just admit that going for a relatively large engined RWD six cylinder coupe over the mass of sensible hatchbacks is largely about the fun factor, so maybe an E36 would be more suitable than an E46. I think at this budget a lot is about finding one in the right condition irrespective on age and, to a certain extent, even engine the exact model.

I'm off to see an E36 328 coupe tomorrow night and it sounds pretty promising, so we'll see how it goes...

You might find the E36 steering a bit slow after a Focus perhaps - easily fixed though if you like the rest of the car. They can feel pretty woolly if the bushes/shocks are tired as well. I think the E36 is a good all-rounder ( although I did enjoy my E21 323i for sheer larking about :hehe )

[Chris71]

fushion julz said:

A LSD is an option on all pre DSC+T cars...post 96 all 328s and most 323s come with DSC+T (easily spotted if you look at the throttle body)...deactivation button is in front of the gearstick/shift.

Interesting. So there's a decent possiblity that the rather unassuming 1995 328 Coupe I'm going to look at later could be have an LSD (based on its age)?

Do the pre-DSC cars have any form of traction control at all? Not something that bothers me, but I'm conscious that my OH has never driven anything RWD or remotely sporty before.

[fushion julz]

It is possible that any '95 model 328 has a LSD...but it was an option only...

If you can't jack the rear wheels to check, then you may be lucky and the tag fitted to one of the bolts on the diff case will stil be there and readable...If it starts "S" it is a slipper!

cars without DSC+T have no form of traction control at all...ABS was standard on all 6-cyl cars, though.

Mine is a 96 saloon with no DSC+T, no LSD (unfortunately) and has standard suspension. (It also has no aircon, no cruise, electric sunroof, sports leather interior and full computer & auto-dimming rearview mirror)...For me it was an ideal car...I dislike traction control and it would be just extra weight and complexity.
I've never had any issues with the handling...sure, it isn't as sharp as my old E30 325i or my E30 M3, but it is a comfortable, quite and reasonably economic daily drive...
Very little goes wrong, if it does it is easy to fix and I can get circa 28-30mpg in mixed driving. It's fast enough to keep up with almost everything bar the supercar stuff, handles nicely (if a little softly) and the cabin is a nice, comfortable place to be for me, my partner and 3 kids...The boot is big enough to take a buggy and enough luggage for a weekend away for 5, too!

Just make sure it feels strong in the engine/gearbox, the clutch bites well and it feels taut and responsive in the suspension dept...They respond well to decent tyres, too...I use Toyo T1Rs, but have had Continentals, too...When I got it it was on some nasty Nankangs and it felt OK in the dry, but lethal if the surface had any moisture at all...

Good luck in your search...

[Jobbo]

s m said:

Just to say that folding seats on a saloon is an option, albeit a rare one but they are out there.

I've had E46 and E36 variants with them.

It says something about the rarity of folding seats in an E36 saloon that I recognise who you are despite the name change

Did the coupes come with folding seats as standard, then? If folding seats are a prerequisite, I'd suggest the OP tries a Touring, anyway. Very handy, and in my eyes the most attractive body shape (in E46 form, anyway).

[fushion julz]

E36 coupes all have folding rear seats...dunno about E46s, but all the ones I've seen do have.

I've personally never seen a saloon with folding seats, but I'm willing to accept that there may be some about...However, it would involve removing the solid bulkhead behind the seats...This provides a fair amount of the extra shell stiffness in a saloon, so I'd prefer the seats remained fixed given the limited usefulness of folding seats without a tailgate...

[Chris71]

Thanks gents.

With regards the E36 Coupe, how can you tell if it's a Sport? I guess the wheels are the most obvious giveaway (assuming they're original)?

[fushion julz]

The only factory sport coupe was the 323i...It should have a black headlining, V5 would say "sport" and it should have M-tech kit and suspension..

[Jobbo]

fushion julz said:

The only factory sport coupe was the 323i...It should have a black headlining, V5 would say "sport" and it should have M-tech kit and suspension..

There was a 328i Sport coupe in the E36, so the 323i was not the only factory Sport.

[s m]

fushion julz said:

E36 coupes all have folding rear seats...dunno about E46s, but all the ones I've seen do have.

I've personally never seen a saloon with folding seats, but I'm willing to accept that there may be some about...However, it would involve removing the solid bulkhead behind the seats...This provides a fair amount of the extra shell stiffness in a saloon, so I'd prefer the seats remained fixed given the limited usefulness of folding seats without a tailgate...

It's option 465 on an E36 - you'll find that some owners after the 2nd/3rd etc won't even know they have it as they don't 'expect' them to fold. Out of 5 328 saloons I looked at 2 had the option.

They don't 'feel' appreciably sloppier than any other saloon or coupe to be honest, you're more likely to notice knackered RTABs/wishbone bushes/subframe mounts than any reduced torsional stiffness. It wasn't a deal breaker for me but it has proved useful on a number of occasions in the last 5 years I've owned it. We specced it on our E46 from new as well

[GBB]

Lots of E36's where company car's when new so many people optioned them up to their budget so folding seats might be more common than expected. IIRC I added Sport Seats, Digital Clock and 16" 5 spoke wheels to my touring just to hit my "max" car budget. No way would I have spent £800 of my own folding on the Alloys upgrade!

It might be worth driving a few to get a feel for what condition they are in, my coupe is incredibly "baggy" handling wise due to it's mega mileage but my Dad's convertible and another one I've driven felt factory fresh steering wise at 70K miles.

[Chris71]

Well, I've driven one! An E36 328 Coupe (albeit for about 500 yards in a 30mph limit).

Good things:

• The engine sounds gorgeous from outside and the powertrain is actually very refined on the move
• Under the bonnet, the engine was very quiet mechanically barring the normal injector noise
• ...less so the rest of it; there's quite a lot of road noise
• Steering feels nice
• Seats are really comfy

Less good things I noticed about this one:

• There was a faint thunk on the back end occasionally. I know they have a reputation for suspension issues, but I wasn't honestly sure if this was something playing up or just the acoustics as the tyres etc. walloped over the potholes - how noticeable is it if there are problems?
• Coolant warning on the dash - apparently permanently on and actual level was okay, so I'm guessing it's a sensor?
• Interior had suffered somewhat
• Four different brands of tyres at different states of wear

So, I think the search continues, but I'm definitely up for a 3-Series.

[s m]

GBB said:

Lots of E36's where company car's when new so many people optioned them up to their budget so folding seats might be more common than expected.

Yep, not that uncommon in E36 saloons actually - in fact here's an M3 version with them fitted for sale at the moment

http://pistonheads.com/sales/2964253.htm

The more expensive E36s like SEs, 328s and M3s tend to have more than most others as it was only a £200 option and on a 30k car that's not a lot

[4rephill]

fushion julz said:

The only factory sport coupe was the 323i...It should have a black headlining, V5 would say "sport" and it should have M-tech kit and suspension..

????

Jobbo said:

There was a 328i Sport coupe in the E36, so the 323i was not the only factory Sport.

As far as I've ever known, the only official factory E36 coupes to carry the Sport name in the UK were the 318is and the 328i Sport. Black headlining is the obvious give away but some people have retro fitted the black headlining to SE spec cars.

Chris71 said:

Well, I've driven one! An E36 328 Coupe (albeit for about 500 yards in a 30mph limit).

Unless it was your choice to abort the test drive so quickly, you really need to drive the car a lot further to get a true idea of what it's like TBH.

Chris71 said:

* ... there's quite a lot of road noise

The road noise tends to be more noticeable because the mechanical side of things is well soundproofed.

Chris71 said:

* There was a faint thunk on the back end occasionally. I know they have a reputation for suspension issues, but I wasn't honestly sure if this was something playing up or just the acoustics as the tyres etc. walloped over the potholes - how noticeable is it if there are problems?

Clunking (or thunking), noises from the rear end is usually due to worn out rear shock mounts and is a common issue on the E36. It's not an expensive thing to repair but can make a good bargaining tool to get some money knocked off the purchase price.

Chris71 said:

* Coolant warning on the dash - apparently permanently on and actual level was okay, so I'm guessing it's a sensor?

Sounds like it if the actual coolant level is ok. Again, not expensive to put right.

Chris71 said:

* Four different brands of tyres at different states of wear

This is a major issue!. The E36 is renowned for being very tyre sensitive and four mixed tyres of varying states of wear will make it handle like st!.
When it comes to the E36 and E46 range, the safest option with tyres is to get four quality tyres (not bargain basement budget tyres!), of the same model type, in the correct sizes front and rear.

[Jobbo]

4rephill said:

Jobbo said:

There was a 328i Sport coupe in the E36, so the 323i was not the only factory Sport.

As far as I've ever known, the only official factory E36 coupes to carry the Sport name in the UK were the 318is and the 328i Sport. Black headlining is the obvious give away but some people have retro fitted the black headlining to SE spec cars.

I thought when they were new that the only factory Touring available in Sport spec was the 323i, but I have seen identically specced 328i Sport Tourings for sale more recently - were they special order or something?

[GBB]

Jobbo said:

I thought when they were new that the only factory Touring available in Sport spec was the 323i, but I have seen identically specced 328i Sport Tourings for sale more recently - were they special order or something?

That sounds like the M Sport package that was available when the Tourings were on run out after the E46 saloon launched. The only proper Sports (demarked as such on the V5) will be Coupes AFAIK.

[jamesson]

fushion julz said:

the BTCC cars were all saloons

Latterly, but originally they ran the coupe.