Penalty for turning right at a "no right turn" sign
Discussion
Red circle sign 612 with bar - Reg 10 TSGD states S36 RTA 88 does not apply to not a NOIP offence of failing to conform to traffic sign proceedings against Traffic Order
Where sign 609 blue circle turn right ahead sign then Reg 10 applies and a NOIP required as proceedings under RTA 88 for failing to conform and points.
dvd
Where sign 609 blue circle turn right ahead sign then Reg 10 applies and a NOIP required as proceedings under RTA 88 for failing to conform and points.
dvd
Dwight VanDriver said:
Red circle sign 612 with bar - Reg 10 TSGD states S36 RTA 88 does not apply to not a NOIP offence of failing to conform to traffic sign proceedings against Traffic Order
Where sign 609 blue circle turn right ahead sign then Reg 10 applies and a NOIP required as proceedings under RTA 88 for failing to conform and points.
dvd
Just to recap on that DVD ( are there any typos?)Where sign 609 blue circle turn right ahead sign then Reg 10 applies and a NOIP required as proceedings under RTA 88 for failing to conform and points.
dvd
If its a red circle prohibition sign generally a fine but no points
If its a blue circle sign (only implied prohibition) a fine plus points
Sounds cart before horse to me
saaby93 said:
If its a red circle prohibition sign generally a fine but no points
Prohibition
saaby93 said:
If its a blue circle sign (only implied prohibition) a fine plus points
Positive instruction - NOT an implied prohibition. What's backwards about it?
Prince Rupert said:
To clarify, this junction had no red circle and no blue circle, just a no right turn triangle.
Can't imagine the sign you mean? - not the one above I take it?Dwight VanDriver said:
Where sign 609 blue circle turn right ahead sign then Reg 10 applies and a NOIP required as proceedings under RTA 88 for failing to conform and points.
DVD, I hate to disagree with you, but while sign 609 is as you say designated under 10(1) as a S36 RTA 1988 sign it is NOT 'specified' in 10(2) TSRGD 2002 for the purposes of column 5 in Schedule 2 Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988...Under that schedule, S36 RTA offences are subject to obligatory endorsement of 3 points only where specified under 10(2) for the purposes of column 5. As such, it would only be a £30 FPN for failing to comply with S36 RTA traffic sign (as opposed to local traffic order like the 612 signed prohibition).
With red circle signs it's pretty obvious what you shouldnt do as they tell you what you shouldnt do. You can do anything else except for what they tell you not to do
Agreed?
With the blue circle signs they only tell you what you must do. (Hey everyone turn left) They dont tell you what you shouldnt do. So if theres a right turn near there or a straight on, you might think that as long as you signal etc and theres no other prohibition sign, youre allowed to take that as well, since there's nothing telling you not to do it. If they definitely didnt want you turn right they'd put up one of the previous signs with a red circle, or a no entry sign.
Blue signs have implied prohibition and you have to guess what the prohibition is.
Red ones tell you what it is.
For instance if you get a blue sign with a cycle in it, it means cycles this way.
You have to guess the prohibition.
Does it mean cycles cant use the path along side it?
or does it mean anything other than cycles i.e. pedestrians, cars etc shouldnt use the bit with the blue sign?
All you know is that cycles must use whatever the blue circle with the cycle refers to.
When I say 'you' I mean some bod off the street who's not reading PH
It may not necessarily be what the law means
Agreed?
With the blue circle signs they only tell you what you must do. (Hey everyone turn left) They dont tell you what you shouldnt do. So if theres a right turn near there or a straight on, you might think that as long as you signal etc and theres no other prohibition sign, youre allowed to take that as well, since there's nothing telling you not to do it. If they definitely didnt want you turn right they'd put up one of the previous signs with a red circle, or a no entry sign.
Blue signs have implied prohibition and you have to guess what the prohibition is.
Red ones tell you what it is.
For instance if you get a blue sign with a cycle in it, it means cycles this way.
You have to guess the prohibition.
Does it mean cycles cant use the path along side it?
or does it mean anything other than cycles i.e. pedestrians, cars etc shouldnt use the bit with the blue sign?
All you know is that cycles must use whatever the blue circle with the cycle refers to.
When I say 'you' I mean some bod off the street who's not reading PH
It may not necessarily be what the law means
Edited by saaby93 on Wednesday 28th March 11:51
Charlie 2
We agree on the sign numbers; 612 (red)No Right Turn. Blue (609) Turn right ahead.
Section 36 RTA 1988:
Drivers to comply with traffic signs.
(1)Where a traffic sign, being a sign—
(a)of the prescribed size, colour and type, or
(b)of another character authorised by the Secretary of State under the provisions in that behalf of the M1Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984,
has been lawfully placed on or near a road, a person driving or propelling a vehicle who fails to comply with the indication given by the sign is guilty of an offence.
(2)A traffic sign shall not be treated for the purposes of this section as having been lawfully placed unless either—
(a)the indication given by the sign is an indication of a statutory prohibition, restriction or requirement, or
(b)it is expressly provided by or under any provision of the Traffic Acts that this section shall apply to the sign or to signs of a type of which the sign is one;
and, where the indication mentioned in paragraph (a) of this subsection is of the general nature only of the prohibition, restriction or requirement to which the sign relates, a person shall not be convicted of failure to comply with the indication unless he has failed to comply with the prohibition, restriction or requirement to which the sign relates.
Reg 10 TSGD:
Section 36 of the 1988 Act shall apply to each of the following signs—
(a)the signs shown in diagrams 601.1, 602, 606, 609, 610, 611.1, 615, 616......etc.
Traffic Sign and General Directions Reg 10 states that 609 IS such a sign but 612 is not.
Section 1 Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 states that NOIP under Schedule 1 and shows the offences to which this section applies and outlined in col 3. S 36 offence of failing to conform to traffic sign is an offence that Section 1 refers to i.e. Noipable.
Schedule2 RTOA: (Punsisments)
RTA section 36 Failing to comply with traffic signs. Summarily Level 3 on the standard scale. Discretionary, if committed in respect of a motor vehicle by failure to comply with an indication given by a sign specified for the purposes of this paragraph in regulations under RTA section 36. Obligatory if committed as described in column 5. 3 points
In relation to sign 609 which is not stipulated and an offence contrary to the relevant Traffic Order made under Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 Sect 5 which under RTAOffendesrs Act Schedule 2 carries fine and no points.
Schedule 2
RTRA section 5 Contravention of traffic regulation order. Summarily. Level 3 on the standard scale.
Surely Col 5 of Schedule 2 RTOA relates to disqualification and not points which are at Col 7 or am I missing something.?
dvd
We agree on the sign numbers; 612 (red)No Right Turn. Blue (609) Turn right ahead.
Section 36 RTA 1988:
Drivers to comply with traffic signs.
(1)Where a traffic sign, being a sign—
(a)of the prescribed size, colour and type, or
(b)of another character authorised by the Secretary of State under the provisions in that behalf of the M1Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984,
has been lawfully placed on or near a road, a person driving or propelling a vehicle who fails to comply with the indication given by the sign is guilty of an offence.
(2)A traffic sign shall not be treated for the purposes of this section as having been lawfully placed unless either—
(a)the indication given by the sign is an indication of a statutory prohibition, restriction or requirement, or
(b)it is expressly provided by or under any provision of the Traffic Acts that this section shall apply to the sign or to signs of a type of which the sign is one;
and, where the indication mentioned in paragraph (a) of this subsection is of the general nature only of the prohibition, restriction or requirement to which the sign relates, a person shall not be convicted of failure to comply with the indication unless he has failed to comply with the prohibition, restriction or requirement to which the sign relates.
Reg 10 TSGD:
Section 36 of the 1988 Act shall apply to each of the following signs—
(a)the signs shown in diagrams 601.1, 602, 606, 609, 610, 611.1, 615, 616......etc.
Traffic Sign and General Directions Reg 10 states that 609 IS such a sign but 612 is not.
Section 1 Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 states that NOIP under Schedule 1 and shows the offences to which this section applies and outlined in col 3. S 36 offence of failing to conform to traffic sign is an offence that Section 1 refers to i.e. Noipable.
Schedule2 RTOA: (Punsisments)
RTA section 36 Failing to comply with traffic signs. Summarily Level 3 on the standard scale. Discretionary, if committed in respect of a motor vehicle by failure to comply with an indication given by a sign specified for the purposes of this paragraph in regulations under RTA section 36. Obligatory if committed as described in column 5. 3 points
In relation to sign 609 which is not stipulated and an offence contrary to the relevant Traffic Order made under Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 Sect 5 which under RTAOffendesrs Act Schedule 2 carries fine and no points.
Schedule 2
RTRA section 5 Contravention of traffic regulation order. Summarily. Level 3 on the standard scale.
Surely Col 5 of Schedule 2 RTOA relates to disqualification and not points which are at Col 7 or am I missing something.?
dvd
Dwight VanDriver said:
Section 1 Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 states that NOIP under Schedule 1 and shows the offences to which this section applies and outlined in col 3. S 36 offence of failing to conform to traffic sign is an offence that Section 1 refers to i.e. Noipable.
No disagreement, a NOIP is required for any S36 RTA sign including the 609 sign.Dwight VanDriver said:
In relation to sign 609 which is not stipulated and an offence contrary to the relevant Traffic Order made under Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 Sect 5 which under RTAOffendesrs Act Schedule 2 carries fine and no points.
Do you mean 609 - it is specified under Reg 10? - think you mean the 612 which is not. Contravention of sign 609 would be prosecuted as contravening a Section 36 RTA sign, not contravening a local Traffic Order.Dwight VanDriver said:
Schedule 2
RTRA section 5 Contravention of traffic regulation order. Summarily. Level 3 on the standard scale.
Surely Col 5 of Schedule 2 RTOA relates to disqualification and not points which are at Col 7 or am I missing something.?
dvd
It's down to the exact wording... Column 5 for a S36 RTA offence says in relation to disqualification:RTRA section 5 Contravention of traffic regulation order. Summarily. Level 3 on the standard scale.
Surely Col 5 of Schedule 2 RTOA relates to disqualification and not points which are at Col 7 or am I missing something.?
dvd
RTOA Column 5 said:
Discretionary, if committed in respect of a motor vehicle by failure to comply with an indication given by a sign specified for the purposes of this paragraph in regulations under RTA section 36.
609 is NOT specified under Reg 10(2), only Reg 10(1), so doesn't carry the discretionary disqualification if contravened. It is 10(2) that makes a sign carry discretionary disqualification. The endorsement of points are then dependant on what the situation on disqualification is:RTOA Column 6 said:
Obligatory if committed as described in column 5.
i.e. if the offence under S36 RTA is committed by contravention of a sign specified under Reg 10(2) and therefore carrying discretionary disqualification, then endorsement of 3 points is obligatory. If a S36 sign by virtue of 10(1) but not specified for column 5 by 10(2) then no obligatory endorsement. This is the situation for the 609 sign.With regards the FPN then issued, we have to turn to the Fixed Penalty Orders/Amendments, which says that a "A fixed penalty offence involving obligatory endorsement" is £60 (with the endorsement), "Any other fixed penalty offence" is £30. Obviously that has been signficantly amended for £60 non-endorsable FPNs, £200/6 point endorsable FPNs, for specific offences. Sadly they don't revise orders (like SIs) on legislation.gov.uk so no point in me trying to link to them.
Charlie 2
Yes after much reading back and forward at last I can see your point and as you say its all in the wording. I am now well and truly taught on this point which I believed in for years past (wrongly)
One thing about RT Law it aint simple and one is always learning.
Thank you for putting me straight.
dvd
PS Do you wear a wig or of the blue cloth?
Yes after much reading back and forward at last I can see your point and as you say its all in the wording. I am now well and truly taught on this point which I believed in for years past (wrongly)
One thing about RT Law it aint simple and one is always learning.
Thank you for putting me straight.
dvd
PS Do you wear a wig or of the blue cloth?
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