tvr 280i (no power to warm- up regulator)
Discussion
Hi guys first post ! new owner of a 280i in America, car is not able to idle and i have now found i have no power to the warm up reg ,also the auxiliary air valve ? can't find where it gets it power from ? been on a Bosch TROUBLE shooter site and it says they is a fuel pump relay its hooked up too ?
pink relay , do you other wedge owners have One ? Thanks Mates
pink relay , do you other wedge owners have One ? Thanks Mates
Hi Mate and welcome to the mad world of wedges..The Auxillary Air Device..(AAD) and Warm Up regulator..(WUR)..Give responding signals and dont really receive signals as such, Although the WUR receives a signal from the thermotime switch to operate the cold start..When you say it doesnt idle does it start ok?.. Has the car sat for a long period of time?..Check to see if the sensor plate is clean and not sticking under the rubber cap on top of the fuel metering head..The one that looks like a brain..Check to see if there are any cracks in the rubber cap or the air hose going from it to the throttle body..If all this is ok then you can adjust the idle control screw which is the large screw with a spring behind it about mid way down on the front of the throttle body..Turn it all the way home/in and then start by turning it out 2 full turns and a half a turn..crank the car and see if it idles, If not turn up 1 turn..The pink relay is a saftey cut off for the fuel pump in case of an accident..Can you pop up any pics of the engine..cheers..Ziga
yeah starts up no problems , will rum at 2000 revs but as it warms up the revs drop and stalls , i can keep it running by the pedal , the car has sat for about 1 1/2 years , if the idle screw is adjusted it seems to rev so high , should the (wur) have power at the plug?? nice one for replying to my pal ,
The fuel injection system is a K-Jetronic and is mostly a mechanical system..The auxillary air device and the warm up regulator have a bi-metal strip inside that works on being heated by the engine, This determines the mixture required, If the strips are broken then the units will not function correctly..There is no power to them...
Have you changed the spark plugs..HT leads and coil?..Maybe change the fuel filter to see what condition the fuel is in, You could pour what is in there into a jar and check for any rust..
if you can get your fuel pressure checked at every point from pump to injectors and at different temperature..i:e..From cold to hot.
Check the sensor plate under the rubber cap to make sure its not sticking..Be gentle with it though as it controls the air/fuel ratio..If its dirty then clean with some carburettor cleaner and clean rag/cloth..Check for cracks and splits in the cap and air intake hose..
Here is a pic of the cap & Air hose although your air intake will probably be a black concertina hose.
Have you changed the spark plugs..HT leads and coil?..Maybe change the fuel filter to see what condition the fuel is in, You could pour what is in there into a jar and check for any rust..
if you can get your fuel pressure checked at every point from pump to injectors and at different temperature..i:e..From cold to hot.
Check the sensor plate under the rubber cap to make sure its not sticking..Be gentle with it though as it controls the air/fuel ratio..If its dirty then clean with some carburettor cleaner and clean rag/cloth..Check for cracks and splits in the cap and air intake hose..
Here is a pic of the cap & Air hose although your air intake will probably be a black concertina hose.
Your the (BEST) cleaned the sensor plate , it was crappy and tightened the black hose which was loose and does not seem to be factory ! it can idle now seems a bit fast around 1400 revs , maybe now its time to services ,plugs n stuff.... Thanks again , for given me your time Mate!!!!
Great news..Always glad to help..Maybe adjust the idle screw a little to take the revs down..Anywhere between 600-900rpm should be good!..
The idle adjustment screw is located on the lower front side of the unit..
You could change the air intake hose to a silicone 90 degree elbow and some 3" stainless steel exhaust pipe..I had a friend cut me 2 x 2"L x 3"W. I then cut some small sections off the silicone elbow as it was too long anyway..Smooth bore helps the air flow much better, The original hose can be found but is getting harder to locate..
Also if you change the fuel filter try to get some soft copper washers for the banjo fitments so that you get a nice tight seating and no leaks..It would be good to change as the car has sat for a little while.
Change:
Spark plugs
Plug leads
Air filter
Fuel filter
Rotor arm
Coil
Also clean up the earth strap and fixing to the engine from the battery.
Enjoy....Also pop some pics up of the beast as we all love a pic...Cheers..Ziga
The idle adjustment screw is located on the lower front side of the unit..
You could change the air intake hose to a silicone 90 degree elbow and some 3" stainless steel exhaust pipe..I had a friend cut me 2 x 2"L x 3"W. I then cut some small sections off the silicone elbow as it was too long anyway..Smooth bore helps the air flow much better, The original hose can be found but is getting harder to locate..
Also if you change the fuel filter try to get some soft copper washers for the banjo fitments so that you get a nice tight seating and no leaks..It would be good to change as the car has sat for a little while.
Change:
Spark plugs
Plug leads
Air filter
Fuel filter
Rotor arm
Coil
Also clean up the earth strap and fixing to the engine from the battery.
Enjoy....Also pop some pics up of the beast as we all love a pic...Cheers..Ziga
wow that engine looks great is that yours ? i changed the air + fuel filter ,i have the plugs ,will get the rest .. i will sent some pictures its a bit rough , but i paint cars for a living so the body aint no worries for me , engines and electric that,s another story (cant find camera )its getting there ,Thanks again i was pulling my hair out
bobs280i said:
wow that engine looks great is that yours.
Hi Mate...Yeah thats my baby..Its taken nearly two years to get to that though..I have had most components refurbed as it was a right basketcase..I use it everyday now or at least when its not raining, I still have minor issues but im getting there..Good luck with yours..This forum is a great place, People on here will always try to help you..A wedge can really try your patience but persistence pays off and the reward is a big smile from ear to ear...Enjoy...ZigaGood advice from above, but if there's no power to the warm up regulator (and/or aux air device) then you need to fix that first, as everything else is a real 'fiddle', and it will never run right for all circumstances.
The wiring subloom on the engine comes from a (European) Ford Granada, and there are a couple of different versions. They all get power from one or other of the "IGN" feeds (ie. from the ignition key switch). If there's no power to the wires, you can bridge it to a known ignition feed point. The coil live won't automatically work, as most are 6 volt types with a resistor. There is at least one fuse for the 'run' components (indicators, wipers etc) so you could try taking a wire from one of those. I think the US versions had the fusebox under the dash ? not sure. My wedge is an early one and has fusebox in engine bay, making this kind of fixup a bit easier...
it could just be a dodgy connector - this is probably the most common TVR issue. The 280's (early ones at least) use a Ford connector designed for INSIDE car in the ENGINE BAY. It's no surprise therefore that it corrodes over time....
The wiring subloom on the engine comes from a (European) Ford Granada, and there are a couple of different versions. They all get power from one or other of the "IGN" feeds (ie. from the ignition key switch). If there's no power to the wires, you can bridge it to a known ignition feed point. The coil live won't automatically work, as most are 6 volt types with a resistor. There is at least one fuse for the 'run' components (indicators, wipers etc) so you could try taking a wire from one of those. I think the US versions had the fusebox under the dash ? not sure. My wedge is an early one and has fusebox in engine bay, making this kind of fixup a bit easier...
it could just be a dodgy connector - this is probably the most common TVR issue. The 280's (early ones at least) use a Ford connector designed for INSIDE car in the ENGINE BAY. It's no surprise therefore that it corrodes over time....
Sorry bobs280i..Wiring isnt one of my best points..I did search through the wedge manual and look through the circuit diagram, I was on the understanding that the said units relayed info back to the ignition amplifier once they had been mechanically operated...I checked the Ford capri manual and found this...
I was wrong...
I was wrong...
Yes.
(I've told Zig before those units are very dumb and all mechanical, but he won't listen !!)
Seriously but......
Both the warm up reg and auxiliary air device should have an ignition feed (ie. live 12v when key on) and an earth. They simply have an electric heating element in them. Nothing fancy at all.Air device simply speeds up idle. You can crush the rubber pipe between your fingers. It should have no (or a tiny) effect when engine hot. Warm up reg changes mixture (equiv of a carb 'choke')
The thermo switch (looks like a big temp sender) has a feed from the CRANK position and then feeds the auxiliary injector on the side of the air box. This injector is solely for cranking when cold.
The warm up regulator also has a vacuum connection to inlet manifold - this enriches mixture at full throttle.
This is the TVR/Ford standard setup.
It's all very similar on other 'K' system vehicles, some don't have vac connection for full throttle.
Check out Capri 2.8i wiring diagram - I'm sure it will be on web somewhere, or a Bosch K jet (early non electronic) diagram. A few cars had the 'K' system. (including Ferrari V8 !)
-- More options ---
I do know the US variants had the cat convertor added, which was not in our UK versions, so it's possible you may have some small differences in the K jet system, but I don't think it applies to the warm up and auxiliary devices.
Mid 80's VW Golf (Rabbit in US ?) and Audi models had an electronic version of K jet - this had an additional regulator on the side of the main distibution head, and an EGO (exhaust Gas sensor) fitted in them - it fine tuned mixture by changing fuel pressure feedback to the main dist. head
you might have one of these ?
(I've told Zig before those units are very dumb and all mechanical, but he won't listen !!)
Seriously but......
Both the warm up reg and auxiliary air device should have an ignition feed (ie. live 12v when key on) and an earth. They simply have an electric heating element in them. Nothing fancy at all.Air device simply speeds up idle. You can crush the rubber pipe between your fingers. It should have no (or a tiny) effect when engine hot. Warm up reg changes mixture (equiv of a carb 'choke')
The thermo switch (looks like a big temp sender) has a feed from the CRANK position and then feeds the auxiliary injector on the side of the air box. This injector is solely for cranking when cold.
The warm up regulator also has a vacuum connection to inlet manifold - this enriches mixture at full throttle.
This is the TVR/Ford standard setup.
It's all very similar on other 'K' system vehicles, some don't have vac connection for full throttle.
Check out Capri 2.8i wiring diagram - I'm sure it will be on web somewhere, or a Bosch K jet (early non electronic) diagram. A few cars had the 'K' system. (including Ferrari V8 !)
-- More options ---
I do know the US variants had the cat convertor added, which was not in our UK versions, so it's possible you may have some small differences in the K jet system, but I don't think it applies to the warm up and auxiliary devices.
Mid 80's VW Golf (Rabbit in US ?) and Audi models had an electronic version of K jet - this had an additional regulator on the side of the main distibution head, and an EGO (exhaust Gas sensor) fitted in them - it fine tuned mixture by changing fuel pressure feedback to the main dist. head
you might have one of these ?
Should have also said -
there's a thread here on stalling when hot, with a lot of useful stuff in it (some of it mine !)
and what to check.
Air device has a reputation for sticking open (use carb cleaner on it), but engine will just idle fast, should be OK otherwise.
If you've got no power to warm up reg, engine will almost certainly stall when warm (just like leaving choke set on hot engine) and may quit altogether (just like flooding). So fix this FIRST.
Also stall when hot can be caused by vacuum leak, but this is because mixture goes WEAK, not rich, but sniff test probably won't work with a cat fitted !
Wedges most common problems are electrical....
there's a thread here on stalling when hot, with a lot of useful stuff in it (some of it mine !)
and what to check.
Air device has a reputation for sticking open (use carb cleaner on it), but engine will just idle fast, should be OK otherwise.
If you've got no power to warm up reg, engine will almost certainly stall when warm (just like leaving choke set on hot engine) and may quit altogether (just like flooding). So fix this FIRST.
Also stall when hot can be caused by vacuum leak, but this is because mixture goes WEAK, not rich, but sniff test probably won't work with a cat fitted !
Wedges most common problems are electrical....
What's that movie ? "Glad to be of service...."
See zigs pictures in related thread for which is which ....
Air device has two 'heater hose' sized pipes, and is just a fancy air valve.
Warm up reg has two small fuel pipes and one vac. connection (if it's still the correct one..)
both have the elec connectors, which by the way should be colour coded to match the device (blue, green, brown I think from memory...er....)
Also you can adjust mixture, but you need a very long 3mm allen key - you should be able to see a small hole (with a tube thing) between main distribution head and air inlet rubber cover...
It's actually possible to pull and push the flap a little with the allen key, which can confirm weak (engine speeds up when push down) or rich (speeds up when pulled - at a slight angle, to grip the adjuster screw...)
As cat has gone, you can also sniff the exhaust - if it's rich, it makes your eyes water, if it's weak, there's a particular odour....(not sure which scientific gas it is !)
I keep telling people, the K system LOOKS complex, but it's actually very simple in operation.
Notes -
K jet does not in any way connect or have any links with the ignition system and its timing.
Crank feed for aux injector typically comes from starter motor - the same as the bypass for the (6 volt) ignition coil to get a bigger start spark.
Engine may start if you live somewhere not too cold, and possibly system may be set a bit rich anyway....
The PINK Relay (or may be faded purple, I think the Granada one was purple...) is probably a timer relay for the fuel pump. It runs pump for about 2 secs and gets a feed from the ignition spark (like a tacho) to retrigger it...
See zigs pictures in related thread for which is which ....
Air device has two 'heater hose' sized pipes, and is just a fancy air valve.
Warm up reg has two small fuel pipes and one vac. connection (if it's still the correct one..)
both have the elec connectors, which by the way should be colour coded to match the device (blue, green, brown I think from memory...er....)
Also you can adjust mixture, but you need a very long 3mm allen key - you should be able to see a small hole (with a tube thing) between main distribution head and air inlet rubber cover...
It's actually possible to pull and push the flap a little with the allen key, which can confirm weak (engine speeds up when push down) or rich (speeds up when pulled - at a slight angle, to grip the adjuster screw...)
As cat has gone, you can also sniff the exhaust - if it's rich, it makes your eyes water, if it's weak, there's a particular odour....(not sure which scientific gas it is !)
I keep telling people, the K system LOOKS complex, but it's actually very simple in operation.
Notes -
K jet does not in any way connect or have any links with the ignition system and its timing.
Crank feed for aux injector typically comes from starter motor - the same as the bypass for the (6 volt) ignition coil to get a bigger start spark.
Engine may start if you live somewhere not too cold, and possibly system may be set a bit rich anyway....
The PINK Relay (or may be faded purple, I think the Granada one was purple...) is probably a timer relay for the fuel pump. It runs pump for about 2 secs and gets a feed from the ignition spark (like a tacho) to retrigger it...
Edited by RCK974X on Tuesday 7th August 00:45
Couldn't find a pink /or purple relay...but this car is fitted with an cream electric box (engine run senor)maybe an American add on? Don't know...also a duraspark box in the engine bay ....just can't find the power source ..will be busy thls weekend, and its so hot here its been in the 90s to the 100s for weeks so that could be helping me?
Just cant wait to drive the wedge as l used to live in England and hear Tvr's all the time' now I finally got one. Cheers once again
Just cant wait to drive the wedge as l used to live in England and hear Tvr's all the time' now I finally got one. Cheers once again
OOps - I wrote the lift/push the wrong way round, pushing down weakens mixture...
Cream box ?? ummm.... no idea. Alarm ?? Just guessing
Early spec 2.8i has a elec connector on the main dist. head, which runs two relays - idea is that when flap is lifted, the pump runs. If you pull connector off the pump should run. Later 'K' in various Fords got a purple relay which uses spark instead, as an enhanced safety feature, with no connector. Not sure if Wedges ever got that relay - the later S series TVRs did, I think.
Duraspark is for dizzy with magnetic pickup - should stand alone from Fuel system.
Yeah - check wiring carefully first !!
The next joy is to discover that one of the headlamp pods doesn't work.....but only on Wednesdays
Cream box ?? ummm.... no idea. Alarm ?? Just guessing
Early spec 2.8i has a elec connector on the main dist. head, which runs two relays - idea is that when flap is lifted, the pump runs. If you pull connector off the pump should run. Later 'K' in various Fords got a purple relay which uses spark instead, as an enhanced safety feature, with no connector. Not sure if Wedges ever got that relay - the later S series TVRs did, I think.
Duraspark is for dizzy with magnetic pickup - should stand alone from Fuel system.
Yeah - check wiring carefully first !!
The next joy is to discover that one of the headlamp pods doesn't work.....but only on Wednesdays
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