Is the Harrier supersonic?

[LotusOmega375D]

I always considered it to be high subsonic, but have just watched an old DVD about them and the narrator claimed a top speed of Mach 1.3

Is that true?

[oldnbold]

LotusOmega375D said:

I always considered it to be high subsonic, but have just watched an old DVD about them and the narrator claimed a top speed of Mach 1.3

Is that true?

Your right, all versions of the Harrier were subsonic.

[tuffer]

GR3 Maximum speed: 730 mph (635 knots, 1,176 km/h) at sea level

[Eric Mc]

Just about transonic.

Indeed, the second generation Harriers are a bit slower.

Of course, if the Hawker VTOL project had gone to plan, there would have been no Harrier and instead we would have got this - which was intended to be supersonic -

[gazapc]

I was under the impression the mach 1.3 was attainable in a full power steep dive. Read it in a book or 2 IIRC.

[Godalmighty83]

Maybe 1.3 was the max design speed, ie in a clean config steep dive, the hawk for instance despite being a sub sonic trainer goes supersonic during dives so pilots can experience it.

[eharding]

Observations from ex-Harrier mates at WW that it was indeed possible to 'drop a bang' in the Harrier, and that the it was easier to do in the two seater than the single seat. I asked John Farley about this when he pitched up one evening, and he reckoned it was that the extended fuselage just happened to hit a sweeter spot in the area rule.

[Dee Gee]

I spent many years chasing them in my Phantom and Tornado. With that big fan they ran out of ideas at about 550 knots. Certainly not supersonic as they didn't have intake ramps. At that speed, the GR1/3 ran out of fuel shortly afterwards.

Edited by Dee Gee on Friday 2nd November 18:50

Edited by Dee Gee on Friday 2nd November 18:51

[williamp]

Dee Gee said:

I spent many years chasing them in my Phantom and Tornado. With that big fan they ran out of ideas at about 550 knots. Certainly not supersonic as they didn't have intake ramps. At that speed, the GR1/3 ran out of fuel shortly afterwards.

Edited by Dee Gee on Friday 2nd November 18:50

Edited by Dee Gee on Friday 2nd November 18:51

gorgeous corvetts by the way. And if you want to tell any stories about my all-time favourite aircraft, the Tornado ADV then please do!

[Ayahuasca]

Dunno about the Harrier, but the Hawk can be supersonic in a dive. Apparently it gets a bit shaky.

[Mojocvh]

Dee Gee said:

I spent many years chasing them in my Phantom and Tornado. With that big fan they ran out of ideas at about 550 knots. Certainly not supersonic as they didn't have intake ramps. At that speed, the GR1/3 ran out of fuel shortly afterwards.

Edited by Dee Gee on Friday 2nd November 18:50

Edited by Dee Gee on Friday 2nd November 18:51

Although the final incarnation GR9 had the most thrust, with the spec engine fitted [after shaving some more metal from places that really could have done without it being removed for the wider fan] the change to the plastic wing was the herald of the speed being chopped from the earlier versions in GR form.

The Sea Harrier was a slightly different kettle of fish however.

Just about any modern swept wing jet fighter/bomber aircraft will be supersonic straight down with enough height.

[Mave]

Mojocvh said:

Although the final incarnation GR9 had the most thrust, with the spec engine fitted [after shaving some more metal from places that really could have done without it being removed for the wider fan] the change to the plastic wing was the herald of the speed being chopped from the earlier versions in GR form.

Did it actually have any more thrust at high speed though? I would have thought that it was all low speed thrust aiding take off, with it dropping off as speed increased?

[Eric Mc]

The second generation Harrier has the extra thrust so that it can lift a heavier bomb/rocket load. It also has slide-out air dams under the fuselage which help channel the downward thrust more effectively when in the hover.

[Mojocvh]

Strakes bolted on Eric. Meant to have the same effect as the gun packs [which never appeared] on the later mk's.

[perdu]

I often wondered why the gun packs never did appear on the later versions

30mm Adens going out of fashion for ground battering by then?

[Ginetta G15 Girl]

The strakes were fitted to the GR1 onwards (when cannons were not fitted) primarily to provide directional stability (and prevent yaw/roll coupling) when manouevring at high alpha and, I am told, some resistance to the effects of yaw induced intake momentum drag when in the hover.

The ADENs were initially fitted to the GR5 but there was a problem with the spent links / cases hitting the tailplanes. On earlier marks this was not an issue since the tailplanes were metal but on GR5 onwards they were carbon fibre and the impacts were causing delamination.

While not standard peacetime fit, the ADENs remained available for fitment right up to the demise of the GR9.

[perdu]

Thanks GG

thought you'd know

brass-plastic interface 500+ mph

makes good sense

[Mojocvh]

23mm was the magic figure. magic like as in thin air.

Plastic wing onwards strakes were very deep to say the least, from what I was able to peruse whilst on the Jump line came into their own to minimise exhaust gas recirculation whilst in the hover.

Edited by Mojocvh on Sunday 4th November 00:44

[steve j]

A 25mm version of the Aden was meant to be fitted to the GR5, 7 and 9. The pods were available and were fitted to some Boscombe aircraft. The link saga was overcome by collecting them in the rear gun pod fairing as in the Hawk set up. I am reliably informed that cost was the major factor in the decision not to have a gun. The whole weapon set up was pretty poor right from the start ! The pylon release units, (No 126 ejector release unit) had major electrical problems, 75% of the Gutersloh fleet couldn`t drop weapons and weren`t sent to the Gulf to fight. A really poor set up considering that it was meant to be a more capable platform than the GR3 !!!

[Eric Mc]

I read Jerry Pook's book "Flying Freestyle" and he isn't that complimentary to the Harrier GR3.
It's a great book, by the way, as is his book "RAF Harrier - Ground Attack Falklands".