111R - loss of power on high lift cam

111R - loss of power on high lift cam

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otolith

Original Poster:

40,047 posts

154 months

Friday 23rd November 2012
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It's had an intermittent fault recently, whereby it changes onto the high lift cam but won't rev. It seemed to have stopped doing it, but I've just had it reflashed to lower the cam change point and it's doing it again. Fault is not in any way related to the reflash, I don't think. It will now rev all the way out to the shift light, but there's no power.

(Obviously the oil level is correct and the engine is warmed - and it is engaging the high lift cam, you can hear it, it just isn't making any power when it does)

This is it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISZrgxqvFCo

Anyone seen this before?

the ronin

1,056 posts

161 months

Friday 23rd November 2012
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Check fuse R6 7.5 amp in the engine bay, it controls VVT. They do pop from time to time.

otolith

Original Poster:

40,047 posts

154 months

Friday 23rd November 2012
quotequote all
Thanks Frank, unfortunately that was my first dashed hope for an easy fix when it first did it frown

Bearings

12 posts

92 months

Saturday 24th November 2012
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Saw this in the Jap Chat section.

I've got one of these engines (2ZZ-GE) in my Celica T-Sport. I'm certainly not an expert but I've owned my car for 6+ years and I did quite a bit of reading up on the weak points of the engine. Although it's the same engine code, I don't know if Toyota / Lotus made any revisions to the engine.


1. Is the engine getting warm, is your oil pressure OK and are your oil levels correct?

When revving my engine hard from cold, the ECU simply won't shift over to the second cam until it's reached the 2nd segment of the temparature gauage and the oil has time to warm through.


2. It could also be that the 'lift' bolts, or one of them, has or is about to snap. I can rev up to just over 7000 rpm on the first cam alone when cold, but when warm - the change over normally happens at 6200 rpm and I can then rev to 8250 rpm on the second cam.

As I understand it, a snapped lift bolt would allow the second cam to rotate and then stop the oil pressure allowing the 2nd cam to engage. If the bolt has broken when you remove it, you 'might' be able to use an EZ-Out to extract the broken part. If the cam has rotated, you won't be able to extract the broken part. Part of the head will need to be removed so you can tap out the cam to extract the broken part.

See here for a ton of pictures showing what I mean and how it can be fixed. There are quite a few other guides out there.

This is the official technical bulletin from Toyota in the US and the description matches against what you're experiancing:

Replacement bolts are about £1 each (at least, from Toyota).

I hope this is all relevant, otherwise apologies if I'm sending you on a wild goose chase.

  • Edited to adjust the web-links formatting

Edited by Bearings on Saturday 24th November 20:07

otolith

Original Poster:

40,047 posts

154 months

Saturday 24th November 2012
quotequote all
Thanks Bearings - no, definitely not the cold limiter, engine fully warmed through, oil level fine. I don't think it is a fault with the mechanism, I believe the cam is engaging - there is a very obvious change in sound when it happens. It has also been intermittent, which suggests to me that it isn't anything worn or broken. I hope so anyway.

I did wonder if it was something like the catalyst breaking up, but I'm starting to think a sensor on the fritz is a more likely problem. Going to get it plugged into the diagnostics next week to see if any fault codes are being logged.

otolith

Original Poster:

40,047 posts

154 months

Monday 26th November 2012
quotequote all
Just to illustrate what it's doing - this is from Dynolicious, just pulling away in 2nd gear and accelerating to max revs in one gear. (Ignore the absolute numbers, they're based on what you enter for weight and transmission losses). Yellow line is power.

From when it wasn't playing up:



This is what it is doing now:



Can you see the problem? hehe

(at least the lowered cam change is working though!)

the ronin

1,056 posts

161 months

Monday 26th November 2012
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Are you getting clutch slip ?

otolith

Original Poster:

40,047 posts

154 months

Monday 26th November 2012
quotequote all
No, clutch is fully engaged, just no power and revs rising very slowly.

I've just taken it for a little drive, and I think it's now down on power everywhere. Didn't try taking it onto the second cam.

Someone has suggested coil pack failure as a possibility - could that be intermittent at first then gradually worsening, I wonder?

the ronin

1,056 posts

161 months

Monday 26th November 2012
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Coilpacks would give a missfire, how about check engine light anything ?

otolith

Original Poster:

40,047 posts

154 months

Monday 26th November 2012
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No CEL showing, no. I've pulled the coils out - lots of brown residue. After wiping them down, they look like this:



(that's a hair not a crack)






otolith

Original Poster:

40,047 posts

154 months

Monday 26th November 2012
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Good coating of dielectric grease on the coils tried, no change.

purpleperil

1,202 posts

234 months

Monday 26th November 2012
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I had this on my 111r - water was getting in as I had a modified coil pack cover and the screws fixing the plastic grilles on the engine cover were letting water through into the engine compartment. I fixed the water ingress, dried the coil pack wells with a hair dryer then applied dielectric grease to the coil pack tubes - sorted and never a problem again, happy days smile

otolith

Original Poster:

40,047 posts

154 months

Monday 26th November 2012
quotequote all
Don't think there is any water getting in, it's as dry as Ghandi's flip flop under the cover, but that's interesting - what symptoms did you get, and did you see a CEL?

purpleperil

1,202 posts

234 months

Monday 26th November 2012
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From what I can recall the car just seemed to hit a power ceiling too early. I did get a MIL come on too - bank running lean - can't remember the code now, sorry.

otolith

Original Poster:

40,047 posts

154 months

Monday 26th November 2012
quotequote all
Interesting, thanks. The lack of any warning lights is puzzling. Will find out tomorrow morning if it's logging any codes.

otolith

Original Poster:

40,047 posts

154 months

Tuesday 27th November 2012
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CEL appeared on the way to the garage. There is definitely a lack of power everywhere now. I've left it with Simon at BK and brought the Yellow Peril home, hopefully there will be news later.

the ronin

1,056 posts

161 months

Tuesday 27th November 2012
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What was the OBD2 code # ?

otolith

Original Poster:

40,047 posts

154 months

Tuesday 27th November 2012
quotequote all
Misfire - but he's cleared it and it hasn't come back. The guys who did the reflash (Essex Autosport, used to be Sinclaires) did say that it could throw a CEL at first, but it didn't do so before today.

It's just frustrating not being able to rule out the reflash - I don't think it's the cause, because of the history of intermittent problems, but it's impossible to tell. Simon is going to see if he can find someone willing to try an ECU swap to see what happens. He's ruled out plugs, problems with sensors, fuses, catalyst seems OK.

Basically, if you keep the throttle pinned, it feels like a massive flat spot from about 6000rpm to a bit over 7000rpm, when it starts to pull again. That's with the cam change at about 5700rpm.

bordseye

1,402 posts

142 months

Friday 7th December 2012
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Dont know if I'm misunderstanding what you are saying - correction. Yes I was.

otolith

Original Poster:

40,047 posts

154 months

Friday 7th December 2012
quotequote all
Still not fixed. I've had some suggestions from the Celica owners club - broken lift bolt is a possibility, but it would seem to be rare on Celicas post-'02 and pretty much unheard of on Elises (unheard of by Lotus, anyway). Other suggestions are blocked filter on the oil control valve (part of the hydraulic mechanism for engaging lift) or an issue with the vvti pulley.

I'm trying to get in contact with a 2ZZGE specialist they have recommended.