Commercial Vehicle parking

[Glenred]

Hi Guys

hope someone can help here, we have a house in a private mews with tenants who drive a VW transporter as their sole vehicle, they use it for triathlon and surfing/biking etc.

One of the residents of the mews has started kicking up a fuss that the van is a commercial vehicle and one of the covenants of the management agreement is no commercial vehicles allowed to park in the car park.

Bloke is a right ass-hat, but the management company are weak and won’t do anything and are now threatening legal action as the complainant has checked the DVLA register and apparently VW transporters are listed as commercial vehicles.

Is there anything that I can do to prove that just because the VW transporter could be used as a commercial vehicle doesn’t mean that’s its sole purpose, and basically get around this covenant.

all help appreciated.

[andrewspencer200]

Stick a VW Caravelle badge on the back, thats the camper van version of the VW Transporter, that way if they do try and say its a transporter and a comercial vehicle you can claim its a Caravelle and not a transporter!

[SS2.]

Has the back of the van been kitted out with cooker, bed, cupboards, etc ?

[Glenred]

No, I don’t think so, it’s just empty for their triathlon gear and surfboards.

he’s a bloody anaesthetist at the hospital not a delivery driver, but this old fart has got a bee in his bonnet.

[GaryGlitter]

Would it not have to be taxed and insured as a commercial vehicle, so SD&P on the insurance and V5 showing proof of ownership to an individual rather than a commercial entity?

[mondeoman]

Glenred said:

No, I don’t think so, it’s just empty for their triathlon gear and surfboards.

he’s a bloody anaesthetist at the hospital not a delivery driver, but this old fart has got a bee in his bonnet.

There's your answer - tell the MC and the other resident to do one. As long as the tenant isn't blocking other peoples drives, then as it clearly isn't being used as a commercial vehicle, they don't have a leg to stand on (IMHO, IANAL, YMMV etc...).

The idea behind these convenants is to stop people running businesses from their homes, not to dictate what car/van you choose as your personal transport, within reason of course. If he rocked up in a converted 71/2 ton box van I'd take a different stance, but this is just someone getting ideas above their station.

[SS2.]

A commercial vehicle doesn't cease to be a commercial vehicle just because it is put to private use.

Have you read the actual wording of the covenant ? Is the owner on thin ice, even though he doesn't put the VW to 'commercial' use ?

Don't suppose he's been considering converting the van to dual-purpose or motor caravan, has he ?

[Rude-boy]

SS2. said:

Have you read the actual wording of the covenant ?

This is key. People like the sleep giver are the reason why we now talk about vehicles with a gross laden weight in excess of 3.5t in our precedents.

In this case the only difference between the 'van' and 'camper van' is the lack of a gas cooker and blow up mattress. Send the Man. Co. pics of these in the back of the van and a picture of a Caravelle.

Ensure that the other leaseholders are aware of the Man Co.'s position and what effect them losing their case will have on the Service Charge/reserves.

[Glenred]

SS2. said:

Have you read the actual wording of the covenant ?

Have it on my desk in front of me.

" Not to park or cause or suffer or permit to be parked any commercial vehicle caravan or boat on the property or any part of the managed areas"

[Mill Wheel]

Does the right ass-hat have planning permission for his TV dish or aerial?

There WILL be something you can pin on right ass-hat to make him wind his neck in.

Meanwhile the MC should be happy to have a way out if they can show that the vehicle is neither taxed or insured for commercial use.

[PV7998]

I suspect that it will all hinge on what they define as a "commercial vehicle" because as far as I know all the vehicle legislation refers to goods vehicles.
I wonder if he would kick up a fuss if you had a standard saloon car that was signwritten?
The HMRC website might provide you with some guidance on their definition of a commercial vehicle.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/sectors/motors/what-is-...

[Rude-boy]

This isn’t getting resolved outside a court room unless someone backs down.

Honestly, given the lack of ‘house on wheels’ in that clause were I surfer dude I would be tempted to swap it for a Caravelle (I have yet to meet a poor sleep giver) and just point and laugh at GOM’s impotent rage

As it stands if this went to court I think he might lose with it being a Transporter unless he gets a very friendly judge. It is 50/50 to my eyes but the costs would fall to him to pay if he loses I suspect knowing these sorts of leases.

Amusingly have a very good look at the bit in the lease where it talks about the LL enforcing the covenants on the other leaseholders at the request of the tenant and if it says something about him having to underwrite it. Play with fire and you could get burnt!

[Rude-boy]

Mill Wheel said:

Does the right ass-hat have planning permission for his TV dish or aerial?

There WILL be something you can pin on right ass-hat to make him wind his neck in.

As said - play with fire, expect to get burnt. Chances are though eveyone on the development is likely to be in breach of that one!

[ging84]

does the lease have a definitions section anywhere?
if it does not specify what a commercial vehicle is then it is up for debate
if freeholder tries to argue that the definition applies specifically to vehicles classified as a commercial vehicle, rather than one that is used for commercial purposes, then feel free to park anything classified as an agricultural vehicle instead, see how that goes down

[anonymous-user]

A commercial vehicle is any type of motor vehicle used for transporting goods or paid passengers. The European Union defines "commercial motor vehicle" as any motorised road vehicle, that by its type of construction and equipment is designed for, and capable of transporting, whether for payment or not: (1) more than nine persons, including the driver; (2) goods and "standard fuel tanks". This means the tanks permanently fixed by the manufacturer to all motor vehicles of the same type as the vehicle in question and whose permanent fitting lets fuel be used directly, both for propulsion and, where appropriate, to power a refrigeration system. Gas tanks fitted to motor vehicles for the direct use of diesel as a fuel are considered standard fuel tanks.[1]

Don't ask me to explain the bit about fuel tanks but it seems clear that your neighbour does not have a commercial vehicle.

Note 'equipment'. If your neighbour's van is set out for hobbies then it cannot be said to be designed for transporting more than 9 people or goods.

[pitmansboots]

Glenred said:

Have it on my desk in front of me.

" Not to park or cause or suffer or permit to be parked any commercial vehicle caravan or boat on the property or any part of the managed areas"

He can't park his van there then can he?

A transporter van is a commercial vehicle and they are not allowed.

It doesn't become non-commercial because it is used for his only transport.

Equally you can't park a caravan there when it isn't being lived in, it doesn't become a non-caravan because it isn't being used as one when parked.

You don't need to define a commercial vehicle in the covenant because they are well defined elsewhere.

[skeggysteve]

I had a similar problem with a neighbour in my last house.

He complained to the letting agent that we weren't allowed to park a van on our drive as it was a commercial vehicle. It was a Citroen Relay (transit sized) and the tax disc said 'LGV'.

The agent suggested that I park it on the road but to make sure I parked it outside the guys house and wait for him to ask me to move it!

[PV7998]

REALIST123 said:

Note 'equipment'. If your neighbour's van is set out for hobbies then it cannot be said to be designed for transporting more than 9 people or goods.

I understand your point but I wouldn't want to argue it in Court. Regardless of what it's actually used for, AFAIK a VW Transporter is designed for carrying goods.

[Pontoneer]

Glenred said:

Hi Guys

hope someone can help here, we have a house in a private mews with tenants who drive a VW transporter as their sole vehicle, they use it for triathlon and surfing/biking etc.

One of the residents of the mews has started kicking up a fuss that the van is a commercial vehicle and one of the covenants of the management agreement is no commercial vehicles allowed to park in the car park.

Bloke is a right ass-hat, but the management company are weak and won’t do anything and are now threatening legal action as the complainant has checked the DVLA register and apparently VW transporters are listed as commercial vehicles.

Is there anything that I can do to prove that just because the VW transporter could be used as a commercial vehicle doesn’t mean that’s its sole purpose, and basically get around this covenant.

all help appreciated.

I imagine that if you look at the taxation class on the vehicle excise disc it will have PLG ( private/light goods ) which is the same as private cars .

It is only a commercial vehicle if it is being used commercially ; lots of people use vans as private vehicles , as your neighbours amply illustrate .

[Bill]

Rude-boy said:

...were I surfer dude I would be tempted to swap it for a Caravelle (I have yet to meet a poor sleep giver) and just point and laugh at GOM’s impotent rage

It'd probably be cheaper and easier just to get a couple of windows and a bench seat fitted.