5 speed conversion
Discussion
I've a 4 speed 280i and was wondering if anyone has converted theirs to a 5 speed. I really like the 4 speed box right up until I'm on the motorway then I wouldn't mind an extra gear.
Would a 5 speed box muck up my gear ratios much? Is it a simple switch or a massive job? Worth the effort?
In an ideal world I'd like an overdrive, that way everything stays normal but I can cruise at lower revs when I'm doing 70 but I can't see that being an option.
Would a 5 speed box muck up my gear ratios much? Is it a simple switch or a massive job? Worth the effort?
In an ideal world I'd like an overdrive, that way everything stays normal but I can cruise at lower revs when I'm doing 70 but I can't see that being an option.
I had this done some 7 years ago. Straightforward using the Type 9 with the only issue being that the speedo cable end needed changing.
The spline from the front of the Ford 5 speed is longer for a V6 so you have to get the right gearbox or be able to change the spline. the gearboxes are marked somewhere BA which stands for V6.
The spline from the front of the Ford 5 speed is longer for a V6 so you have to get the right gearbox or be able to change the spline. the gearboxes are marked somewhere BA which stands for V6.
Skyedriver, I think you're right. I just had a look at a scimitar box on eBay and it bears no resemblance to mine 
Magpies, I'd love to find out more about the six speed kit, had a jolly good google but nothing came up. Do you remember any other details?
Mjg280, how do you find it? What was your reason for the switch?
Magpies, I'd love to find out more about the six speed kit, had a jolly good google but nothing came up. Do you remember any other details?
Mjg280, how do you find it? What was your reason for the switch?
mrzigazaga said:
I preferred the 4 speed on the 280i..Stretching out the gearing was a lot of fun and the pops and bangs were like an AK sounding off..As said the ratios are different and might not be so much fun…Ziga
That's what I'd be most afraid of, I would hate to lose the fun element. I love that pop on the overrun, gives me goose pimples. phillpot said:
The 5 speed "type9" in the S series cars is an overdrive fifth gear so ratio's shouldn't be any closer than the old four speed?
This sounds very positive, maybe I need to find someone with a capri or something with a type 9 fitted and try it out. Not a huge chance of getting a spin in an s series over here unfortunately. This Is also interesting, a bell housing to mate a Borg Warner T5 with a cologne.
http://www.burtonpower.com/aluminium-bellhousing-t...
Any idea what if any cars rolled out of a factory with a cologne and a T5?
http://www.burtonpower.com/aluminium-bellhousing-t...
Any idea what if any cars rolled out of a factory with a cologne and a T5?
Oh dear, it's TECHIE TIME !!!
I've done this study before.
With original tyre sizes....
The 4 speed 280 has a high diff ratio, the Jag 3.06 (at least mine does) giving a gearing of 21.8 mph per 1000 rpm in top gear (5700rpm = 125mph) . This is slightly higher than the 2.8/3.0 Capri (3.09 ratio).
The 5 speed 2.8 Wedges had a rear diff ratio of 3.54, giving a 5th gear ratio of 22.9. The 5th speed is technically an overdrive gear (i.e, less than 1:1) but is not an extra unit like (early) Scimitars and Triumphs were.
This broadly fits in with the Ford gearings for Sierra (23.0) and Granada (24.7), Note that Ford used lower gearing in the 'performance' Sierra XR4 compared to Granny.
With the original diff and a 5 speeder (ex-Capri) you get 26.5 mph per 1000rpm.
That's a very tall ratio for the 2.8, which isn't exactly overflowing with torque, but is still reasonably close to the 5 speed Capri gearing
Gbox
The 5 speed type 9 gearbox came in 4 and 6 cyl flavours, 4 cyl will fit everything from a 1300 kent to a 2.0 OHC. 6 cyl only fits to a Cologne block (not Essex 3.0). I'm pretty sure it has only two internal gear set options (2.8, and all the rest).
The 5 speed is NOT as strong as the original 4 speed box. It came from the smaller 4 speed box which had its rear casing changed to accomodate a 5th gear pair, which sits outside the main gear casing. The 5 speeder is very hard on its layshaft, which tends to wear out. Later boxes had a redesigned setup to fix this, but it was only fitted to late series Granadas (as far as I can find out)
T5 boxes come in a wide range of flavours, and come with various different gear sets and ratios, Only fitted to Ford Sierra Cosworth in UK. T5 is a bigger gearbox, but I reckon it will fit in the wedge tunnel. T5 is VERY strong box, was fitted behind various V8 engines in US. You will need a special bellhousing though, as it was not originally fitted to a Cologne block. Some T5 boxes have a very high 5th gear though so you will need to check....
Having had a car with a T5 it's not nearly as slick to change as the 4 or 5 speed Fords.
I've done this study before.
With original tyre sizes....
The 4 speed 280 has a high diff ratio, the Jag 3.06 (at least mine does) giving a gearing of 21.8 mph per 1000 rpm in top gear (5700rpm = 125mph) . This is slightly higher than the 2.8/3.0 Capri (3.09 ratio).
The 5 speed 2.8 Wedges had a rear diff ratio of 3.54, giving a 5th gear ratio of 22.9. The 5th speed is technically an overdrive gear (i.e, less than 1:1) but is not an extra unit like (early) Scimitars and Triumphs were.
This broadly fits in with the Ford gearings for Sierra (23.0) and Granada (24.7), Note that Ford used lower gearing in the 'performance' Sierra XR4 compared to Granny.
With the original diff and a 5 speeder (ex-Capri) you get 26.5 mph per 1000rpm.
That's a very tall ratio for the 2.8, which isn't exactly overflowing with torque, but is still reasonably close to the 5 speed Capri gearing
Gbox
The 5 speed type 9 gearbox came in 4 and 6 cyl flavours, 4 cyl will fit everything from a 1300 kent to a 2.0 OHC. 6 cyl only fits to a Cologne block (not Essex 3.0). I'm pretty sure it has only two internal gear set options (2.8, and all the rest).
The 5 speed is NOT as strong as the original 4 speed box. It came from the smaller 4 speed box which had its rear casing changed to accomodate a 5th gear pair, which sits outside the main gear casing. The 5 speeder is very hard on its layshaft, which tends to wear out. Later boxes had a redesigned setup to fix this, but it was only fitted to late series Granadas (as far as I can find out)
T5 boxes come in a wide range of flavours, and come with various different gear sets and ratios, Only fitted to Ford Sierra Cosworth in UK. T5 is a bigger gearbox, but I reckon it will fit in the wedge tunnel. T5 is VERY strong box, was fitted behind various V8 engines in US. You will need a special bellhousing though, as it was not originally fitted to a Cologne block. Some T5 boxes have a very high 5th gear though so you will need to check....
Having had a car with a T5 it's not nearly as slick to change as the 4 or 5 speed Fords.
Edited by RCK974X on Thursday 5th December 18:32
Andy you are the man!
Thanks for that it clears a hell of a lot up for me. Hallsie fitted stage three heads before I bought her so power wise it's probably pushing the limit of the T9 and a T5 will drastically change my ratios unless I change the diff aswell. In short just shut up, drive it and smile
Did I get that right?
Thanks for that it clears a hell of a lot up for me. Hallsie fitted stage three heads before I bought her so power wise it's probably pushing the limit of the T9 and a T5 will drastically change my ratios unless I change the diff aswell. In short just shut up, drive it and smile
Did I get that right?
OOPS !!
I forgot to add that as STANDARD the T5 isn't as good a shifter as the Fords, I should have said that there is a wide range of add-ons/kits for T5, including 'slick shift' and 'fast shift' options, which are used by the racers. I think I have even seen a steering wheel paddle shift (or was that for the T56 6 speed?)
On the basis you have a tuned 2.8, I wouldn't go for a type 9 unless you get one very cheap or one of the later ones (both very unlikely !) - I reckon a T5 would be better choice. If you do get a type 9, get the layshaft and its bearings checked out before wasting a lot of time fitting it. I think you can get uprated bearing kits. There are two grades of bearings from Ford (the 2.8 set, and the rest, like the gearsets) the 2.8 have longer needle rollers, but they still wear out.
Current 4 speeder will handle extra power - I read that they are good for over 200bhp, and happily spent their lives behind tuned Essex lumps with no problems...
I forgot to add that as STANDARD the T5 isn't as good a shifter as the Fords, I should have said that there is a wide range of add-ons/kits for T5, including 'slick shift' and 'fast shift' options, which are used by the racers. I think I have even seen a steering wheel paddle shift (or was that for the T56 6 speed?)
On the basis you have a tuned 2.8, I wouldn't go for a type 9 unless you get one very cheap or one of the later ones (both very unlikely !) - I reckon a T5 would be better choice. If you do get a type 9, get the layshaft and its bearings checked out before wasting a lot of time fitting it. I think you can get uprated bearing kits. There are two grades of bearings from Ford (the 2.8 set, and the rest, like the gearsets) the 2.8 have longer needle rollers, but they still wear out.
Current 4 speeder will handle extra power - I read that they are good for over 200bhp, and happily spent their lives behind tuned Essex lumps with no problems...
Lots of info on the type 9 here:
http://www.type9gearbox.co.uk/index.html
I've got one out of a 2.8 injection Capri sitting in my garage for my Tasmin. Mine Seams very low geared, maybe the 200 had a lower final drive ratio?
http://www.type9gearbox.co.uk/index.html
I've got one out of a 2.8 injection Capri sitting in my garage for my Tasmin. Mine Seams very low geared, maybe the 200 had a lower final drive ratio?
Yeah, the 200 had a lower diff ratio according to Robson book. It says 3.44:1, but I'm not sure if there was such a ratio, and it's probably a 3.54:1, which was fitted to the 5 speed 2.8 as well.
I guess a 2.8 4 speed with a 3.54 would seem low, it calculates to 19 mph per 1000 rpm , compared to 21.8,
or another way - at 100mph -
orig 2.8 4 speed, 3.06:1 = 4600rpm
orig 2.0 4 speed, 3.54:1 = 5260rpm (5 speed 2.8 in 4th)
orig 2.8 5 speed, 3.54:1 = 4400rpm (5 speed 2.8 in 5th)
I have lots more numbers if you want them, I did a spreadsheet of different gearboxes and engine options a while back, for comparison with some standard cars (like Capri, Granny, Sierra) and other possible donors
I can even tell you how to calculate rolling tyre circumference for those of you who swop tyre sizes !
Stog, note how closely TVR geared the 4 and 5 speeders, which makes me wonder if the 2.8 (even a tuned one) would pull happily through any taller gearing. It might, I don't know for sure ...
I guess a 2.8 4 speed with a 3.54 would seem low, it calculates to 19 mph per 1000 rpm , compared to 21.8,
or another way - at 100mph -
orig 2.8 4 speed, 3.06:1 = 4600rpm
orig 2.0 4 speed, 3.54:1 = 5260rpm (5 speed 2.8 in 4th)
orig 2.8 5 speed, 3.54:1 = 4400rpm (5 speed 2.8 in 5th)
I have lots more numbers if you want them, I did a spreadsheet of different gearboxes and engine options a while back, for comparison with some standard cars (like Capri, Granny, Sierra) and other possible donors
I can even tell you how to calculate rolling tyre circumference for those of you who swop tyre sizes !
Stog, note how closely TVR geared the 4 and 5 speeders, which makes me wonder if the 2.8 (even a tuned one) would pull happily through any taller gearing. It might, I don't know for sure ...
Edited by RCK974X on Friday 6th December 21:59
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