RE: Dallara road car prototype spied
Tuesday 18th April 2017
Dallara is one of the icons of racing car chassis development, a name known across motorsport. The company's achievements since its formation in 1972 are both numerous and remarkable: Dallara cars have won 15 of the 19 Indy 500s they have entered. Every single Italian F3 championship since 1985 has been won by a Dallara, apart from 1990. And it worked with Audi on the R8 LMP cars
That's before you mention the road car side of Dallara, which has included collaboration on cars like the KTM X-Bow, Maserati MC12 and Alfa 4C. Alright, nobody's perfect. But the point being that when Dallara starts work on a road car there's cause to be very, very excited indeed.
Look behind the front wheels, where air will be dragged out and along the side of the car. There appears to be some very serious cladding around the rear arches too, though it's hard to be sure what that's for just yet. The spoiler and diffuser are suitably serious too, the latter presumably the end of a flat floor underneath the car. At present the car is on Pirelli winter tyres, so place your bets now as to what the more track focused rubber might be.
Dallara road car prototype spied
After years of sportscar and formula racing domination, Dallara is moving on to its very own road car...
Here's our first look at what's believed to be said vehicle, testing ahead of a rumoured debut later this year. Naturally it carries the disguise of a test mule, though there seems little point attempting to cover up such an outrageous looking car - how could you miss it? The Dallara appears more dramatic than many top level racing cars, particularly with the driver's canopy so visible here.
It doesn't appear a big car though. In an interview with Autocar last year Giampaola Dallara said he was aiming for 800kg with this car, which of course a diminutive size will help with. Note as well that the wheels and tyres aren't all that big either, the focus seemingly on aero grip rather than a huge tyre footprint.
As for an engine, it has been suggested that the Dallara will use a version of the 2.3-litre Ecoboost four-cylinder turbo as used in the Mustang and the Focus RS. Not an auspicious start, though expect it to be more powerful and - hopefully, at least - more exciting than in those installations. For a sense of how it can perform in a lightweight car see our impressions of the Zenos E10 R, which uses a 350hp version of the engine with the single-scroll turbo set-up from the Mustang.
The Dallara road car is expected to be more expensive than the KTM X-Bow because of its greater performance. The logical comparison would be with the Lotus 3-Eleven, which also combines an off-the-shelf engine with lightweight construction and serious aero for stupendous performance. We, and most probably the chaps in Norfolk, will be watching this one with interest.
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[Photos: S. Baldauf/SB-Medien]
Discussion
Loyly said:
It sounded fantastic, at least until I got to the part of the article where they said it would be getting that drone-pot from the Focus RS.
I'll refer you to this onboard of the Zenos E10 R that uses the same motor - sounded and felt pretty exciting from the driving seat of a sub-tonne car I have to say!Cheers,
Dan
Nanook said:
Pistonheads is great.
Dallara are building a road car, based on their spectacularly success in building race cars.
The responses here? They're wrong, it'll be boring.
Yes, but after all, 4 cylinders are all boring crap, according to many on PH.Dallara are building a road car, based on their spectacularly success in building race cars.
The responses here? They're wrong, it'll be boring.
Never mind the
Cosworth BDA-G (Escort RS1800 etc)
Many many FIATs, Lancias, Alfa Romeos
Maserati 250F etc
Ferrari 500 TR (and others)
Porsche 356
Almost every Lotus model
Subaru WRX
and many more.
Just settle down, go with the flow, buy a 6 cylinder turbo diesel, and tell yourself you own "the ultimate driving machine".
Auto, naturally.
I don't think the 4 pot is that much of an issue. It'd depend on the whole package.
The big problem with more cylinders is that they often come with more weight attached. I think we can all agree that less weight is good through twisty bends, so a car with the same power output but better cornering/steering due to a lighter nose weight and better balance is not a bad thing IMHO.
If all you want from a road car is the right noise then there are plenty of V8s you can buy. Not many that also do corners as well as I suspect this will.
The big problem with more cylinders is that they often come with more weight attached. I think we can all agree that less weight is good through twisty bends, so a car with the same power output but better cornering/steering due to a lighter nose weight and better balance is not a bad thing IMHO.
If all you want from a road car is the right noise then there are plenty of V8s you can buy. Not many that also do corners as well as I suspect this will.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I may be overreacting a touch 
, but I do get tired of the four-cylinder bashing that seems inevitable on PH.GranCab said:
... and no synchromesh on the gearbox please - double declutching is for MEN 
My late father had manual ignition advance on at least one of his motorcycles - does he (posthumously) win? 
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Yup, all the way round the lap I was thinking "god, this engine is SO BORING, yawn...." Here's another tedious forced-induction four-cylinder car that's absolutely no fun for a purist driver along a demanding stretch of B-road...
Could barely keep myself awake driving that one.
Of course, if we're doing this properly there can be only one answer!
Dan
Devil's advocate then; if the Dallara weighed sub-800kg and had BBR build Super 200 spec engines based on the 2.0-litre Mazda Skyactiv motor with c. 200hp-plus, 8K redline how would that sound to you? Because short of refurbed Porsche motors or the heavy, aged and lethargic naturally aspirated V6s from Toyota and Nissan the choices for this kind of car are extremely limited.
You're further limited by packaging too because if you want to keep it light you'll likely have to work with an engine/gearbox designed for transverse installation, which with a V6 throws up all sorts of compromises in CoG and space. Longitudinal would be nice but transmission will add a five-figure number to your bottom line price and be a race 'box ill suited to road use.
I absolutely sympathise with your arguments and agree with you on most of them. But it seems to me this battle is lost and people like Dallara, Alpine, Lotus and Alfa Romeo are forced into working with what is available on the market at a reasonable cost and delivers the performance required. And that ultimately means a transverse four-cylinder engine, most likely with some sort of forced induction and - for packaging reasons - most likely with an off- the-shelf DCT transmission. Ref. 4C and Alpine. Them's the facts and I don't really see what there is available between this and a Chevy crate motor with a Hewland bolited on.
Arguably there probably ARE enough cheap Boxsters and Caymans around to sustain a small manufacturer using Porsche-engined cars with nice naturally aspirated sixes and manual transmissions from donor cars. But what manufacturer is going to commit to a product based around that?
I WILL argue the toss over the supercharged Toyota engines in the Elise and Exige though. If you can't get excited by one of them screaming round to 8.5K someone needs to check for a pulse!
Respectfully, etc...
Dan
You're further limited by packaging too because if you want to keep it light you'll likely have to work with an engine/gearbox designed for transverse installation, which with a V6 throws up all sorts of compromises in CoG and space. Longitudinal would be nice but transmission will add a five-figure number to your bottom line price and be a race 'box ill suited to road use.
I absolutely sympathise with your arguments and agree with you on most of them. But it seems to me this battle is lost and people like Dallara, Alpine, Lotus and Alfa Romeo are forced into working with what is available on the market at a reasonable cost and delivers the performance required. And that ultimately means a transverse four-cylinder engine, most likely with some sort of forced induction and - for packaging reasons - most likely with an off- the-shelf DCT transmission. Ref. 4C and Alpine. Them's the facts and I don't really see what there is available between this and a Chevy crate motor with a Hewland bolited on.
Arguably there probably ARE enough cheap Boxsters and Caymans around to sustain a small manufacturer using Porsche-engined cars with nice naturally aspirated sixes and manual transmissions from donor cars. But what manufacturer is going to commit to a product based around that?
I WILL argue the toss over the supercharged Toyota engines in the Elise and Exige though. If you can't get excited by one of them screaming round to 8.5K someone needs to check for a pulse!
Respectfully, etc...
Dan
Dan Trent said:
But it seems to me this battle is lost and people like Dallara, Alpine, Lotus and Alfa Romeo are forced into working with what is available on the market at a reasonable cost and delivers the performance required.
Bring back the K series: incredibly light, good for 200+ bhp, and ability to rev to 8K. Or a normally aspirated Duratec. I have a Zenos E10R and in my opinion the 2.3 Ecoboost is stunning.
Zenos didn't use the standard setup and it a completely bespoke ECU and tuning - tailored more towards it only having to shove a car about half the weight of its mainstream uses. The 2.3 has plenty of low down torque making the car pretty rapid even when off boost.
It's hard to say how it sounds as in the zenos installation the air intake is about 6" from the drivers head - some people don't like it but it makes me laugh out loud as it sounds like a jet engine under load and the dump valve whoosh makes pedestrians jump out their skin.
There are already packages up to 500hp available for this engine but TBH 500hp/ton is plenty quick and perfectly driveable day to day (I commute in mine).
Sure it has a little lag but it's less than the 2.0T and more manageable with the extra natural grunt from the 10%+ displacement.
Plenty of small manufacturers are using the eco boost engines for very good reason - reliable, powerful, relatively inexpensive, compact...
Writing a powerplant off because it's I4 turbo in this day and age is in my opinion blinkered.
Zenos didn't use the standard setup and it a completely bespoke ECU and tuning - tailored more towards it only having to shove a car about half the weight of its mainstream uses. The 2.3 has plenty of low down torque making the car pretty rapid even when off boost.
It's hard to say how it sounds as in the zenos installation the air intake is about 6" from the drivers head - some people don't like it but it makes me laugh out loud as it sounds like a jet engine under load and the dump valve whoosh makes pedestrians jump out their skin.
There are already packages up to 500hp available for this engine but TBH 500hp/ton is plenty quick and perfectly driveable day to day (I commute in mine).
Sure it has a little lag but it's less than the 2.0T and more manageable with the extra natural grunt from the 10%+ displacement.
Plenty of small manufacturers are using the eco boost engines for very good reason - reliable, powerful, relatively inexpensive, compact...
Writing a powerplant off because it's I4 turbo in this day and age is in my opinion blinkered.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
It struck me that the point cmoose was trying to make was that with a track car, overall performance is the more important factor so certain other aspects can be negated whereas for a road car some of these aspects are arguably more important and that overall performance can be traded to ensure you get these characters. The dull, thudding noise that you seem to get from the ecoboost is possibly one of those things. It delivers on performance, cost etc but for a road car it's worth trading some of that for character.
However, as Dan alludes to, it's not exactly as if there is much choice in the world today re petrol engines. Especially small ones where forced induction for the purpose of economy is in their primary design.
If you're building an interesting small car these days you are going to struggle to find an interesting, small engine for it.
However, as Dan alludes to, it's not exactly as if there is much choice in the world today re petrol engines. Especially small ones where forced induction for the purpose of economy is in their primary design.
If you're building an interesting small car these days you are going to struggle to find an interesting, small engine for it.
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