Box Junction PCN - Do I have a case?
Discussion
Hi
While I suspect it's not worth fighting, I would like to get the thoughts of the PH community. I have received a PCN for entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited. It was on a two lane section of the A3 heading up West Hill towards the traffic lights, and the box junction itself is outside the fire station.
So, I was driving a ZipVan, and fair enough, I had the front 50% of the van in the box junction, however there are a couple of mitigating circumstances. Firstly - the box junction is massive, and it overlaps the fire station exit by quite a way (see pic) so the the nose of the van was around 1ft beyond the pavement end
Secondly, and for me the main one, the only reason I had entered the box was that at this time, there had been an accident up by the lights on the left lane (lorry vs Mercedes, nothing too serious, but as it turned out, that lane was blocked which was not obvious beforehand as it had simply appeared to be slow/stationary traffic). So I was indicating and had begun to move forward to merge in turn into that lane when the lorry cab unit that I thought was letting me in went ahead and took the gap on the far side of the junction. So I stopped where I was to wait for a gap to reopen and when it did, I headed on through. Third possible mitigating circumstance, in the pics that I have been sent, the one showing the van in the junction is largely obscured by the lorry unit that went on to the far side, so that no numberplate is visible. The picture with the numberplate is from 24 seconds later, showing me as I exited once it cleared.
So, technically, I know I was in the wrong, I should not have moved until it was definitely clear on the far side, but as my lane was unexpectedly blocked on the exit, and my transgression caused possibly 10% of the actual box to be blocked, with no tangible impedence to the Fire Station operation, is it worth challenging?
Thanks!
While I suspect it's not worth fighting, I would like to get the thoughts of the PH community. I have received a PCN for entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited. It was on a two lane section of the A3 heading up West Hill towards the traffic lights, and the box junction itself is outside the fire station.
So, I was driving a ZipVan, and fair enough, I had the front 50% of the van in the box junction, however there are a couple of mitigating circumstances. Firstly - the box junction is massive, and it overlaps the fire station exit by quite a way (see pic) so the the nose of the van was around 1ft beyond the pavement end
Secondly, and for me the main one, the only reason I had entered the box was that at this time, there had been an accident up by the lights on the left lane (lorry vs Mercedes, nothing too serious, but as it turned out, that lane was blocked which was not obvious beforehand as it had simply appeared to be slow/stationary traffic). So I was indicating and had begun to move forward to merge in turn into that lane when the lorry cab unit that I thought was letting me in went ahead and took the gap on the far side of the junction. So I stopped where I was to wait for a gap to reopen and when it did, I headed on through. Third possible mitigating circumstance, in the pics that I have been sent, the one showing the van in the junction is largely obscured by the lorry unit that went on to the far side, so that no numberplate is visible. The picture with the numberplate is from 24 seconds later, showing me as I exited once it cleared.
So, technically, I know I was in the wrong, I should not have moved until it was definitely clear on the far side, but as my lane was unexpectedly blocked on the exit, and my transgression caused possibly 10% of the actual box to be blocked, with no tangible impedence to the Fire Station operation, is it worth challenging?
Thanks!
The purpose of box junctions seems to have changed from aiding traffic flow to raising money so I suspect that as you accept that you were stationary in the box you won't have much of a case.
I have become paranoid about not stopping in boxes- only today I had someone hooting at me like a nutter because i wouldn't move forward into a box with no clear exit. He was trapped in a previous box, but that was his error.
I have become paranoid about not stopping in boxes- only today I had someone hooting at me like a nutter because i wouldn't move forward into a box with no clear exit. He was trapped in a previous box, but that was his error.
Worth making the argument that you moved when your exit was clear but that somebody then took it owing to the above. When this happened you stopped.
It's non-endorseable after all and there is no additional charge for doing so (assuming you're over the 14 day discount period).
Head over to Pepipoo too, they'll assist and may even have knowledge of the junction.
It's non-endorseable after all and there is no additional charge for doing so (assuming you're over the 14 day discount period).
Head over to Pepipoo too, they'll assist and may even have knowledge of the junction.
Some reading here.
http://yellowboxjunction.co.uk/How-to-appeal-a-yel...
I fell foul a few months ago, but did not get a PCN. I entered a box junction just as a car was about to leave, but then he inexplicably stopped and blocked my exit, when he could have cleared it with space for me to clear it. Luckily I was not captured, so no PCN. It has made me more cautious at these though, to the expense of sensible traffic flow.
http://yellowboxjunction.co.uk/How-to-appeal-a-yel...
I fell foul a few months ago, but did not get a PCN. I entered a box junction just as a car was about to leave, but then he inexplicably stopped and blocked my exit, when he could have cleared it with space for me to clear it. Luckily I was not captured, so no PCN. It has made me more cautious at these though, to the expense of sensible traffic flow.
I use that junction a lot driving HGV and quite a lot of drivers use that to cross from lane 2 into lane 1
thus blocking my exit so I make a point of closing up any gaps as size matters as you car and van drivers don't want to mess with large trucks but are happy to try cut in at the last moment.
Go pay your fine otherwise I am quite happy to re-arrange your lower panels with the wheel nuts
and mess up your NCB
thus blocking my exit so I make a point of closing up any gaps as size matters as you car and van drivers don't want to mess with large trucks but are happy to try cut in at the last moment.
Go pay your fine otherwise I am quite happy to re-arrange your lower panels with the wheel nuts
and mess up your NCB
A lot of people get confused by what the actual offence is.
If, once you have entered the box, somebody takes your lane thereby causing you to have to stop within the box then you have grounds for appeal.
You cannot be expected to take account of another driver doing something which you cannot anticipate (or even see as in Orgil below).
See Orgil v LB Barnet London Tribunals case reference 2160413115.
Adjudicators decisions are not binding but Orgil follows that of Essoo v LB Barnet where the original decision to refuse was overtuned on review.
The key question is was what happened predictable?
The OP's description lacks enough specific detail. It sounds like the OP tried to change lane and the lorry driver wouldn't let him.
The key questions are the relative positions of each vehicle: where and when. Without the complete video it's difficult to give an accurate assessment.
His best bet is look up both cases and decide which one is closest to his situation. They can be found here - http://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/key-cases.
Under Subject select Box Junctions from the drop down menu. In the Case name box enter Essoo.
Highway Code Rule 174 said:
You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right.
TSRGD said:
(1)...the prohibition that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.
(2) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not apply to any person—
(a) who causes a vehicle to enter the box junction (other than a box junction at a roundabout) for the purpose of turning right; and
(b) stops it within the box junction for so long as it is prevented from completing the right turn by oncoming vehicles or other vehicles which are stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.
What consistently gets overlooked is that the word 'until' in the Highway Code is entirely absent from the legislation. If at the time you enter your exit is clear then there no offence.(2) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not apply to any person—
(a) who causes a vehicle to enter the box junction (other than a box junction at a roundabout) for the purpose of turning right; and
(b) stops it within the box junction for so long as it is prevented from completing the right turn by oncoming vehicles or other vehicles which are stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.
If, once you have entered the box, somebody takes your lane thereby causing you to have to stop within the box then you have grounds for appeal.
You cannot be expected to take account of another driver doing something which you cannot anticipate (or even see as in Orgil below).
See Orgil v LB Barnet London Tribunals case reference 2160413115.
Adjudicators decisions are not binding but Orgil follows that of Essoo v LB Barnet where the original decision to refuse was overtuned on review.
The key question is was what happened predictable?
Review said said:
In our view the Regulation, describing as it does a consequence that a vehicle has to stop in the box due to the presence of stationary vehicles, does not thereby impose a necessity upon a driver that he must wait outside the box to see if traffic ahead will become stationary before he decides to enter. The traffic may still be moving when s/he enters and yet a contravention still occur if the traffic stops thereafter. This is the driver’s risk in the judgment s/he exercises unless, as in Mr Essoo’s case, the driver could not have predicted the reason for the stopping of the vehicles ahead.
We have had regard to the relevant paragraph advising motorists in the Highway Code. The warning is “ You must not enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear.” However we are of the view that this steps rather beyond what is required by the Regulation. A driver may exercise a prediction in his judgment as to whether the exit space will be clear. He is not to blame if the exit is thereafter blocked by an unexpected event such as the intervening action of another vehicle cutting into his right of way without warning.
The review also considered the case of Khan v TfL. He could have anticipated what would happen and didn't so it uphled the original decsion which went against him.We have had regard to the relevant paragraph advising motorists in the Highway Code. The warning is “ You must not enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear.” However we are of the view that this steps rather beyond what is required by the Regulation. A driver may exercise a prediction in his judgment as to whether the exit space will be clear. He is not to blame if the exit is thereafter blocked by an unexpected event such as the intervening action of another vehicle cutting into his right of way without warning.
The OP's description lacks enough specific detail. It sounds like the OP tried to change lane and the lorry driver wouldn't let him.
The key questions are the relative positions of each vehicle: where and when. Without the complete video it's difficult to give an accurate assessment.
His best bet is look up both cases and decide which one is closest to his situation. They can be found here - http://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/key-cases.
Under Subject select Box Junctions from the drop down menu. In the Case name box enter Essoo.
55palfers said:
Surely it's not actually a junction?
Surprised no one else has commented on this. Does it not have to be at the junction of two or more roads in order to be a box junction? Where is the second road, surely one road cannot be a junction?Schedule 19 of The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002
Interpretation of Part II of Schedule
6. In this Part of this Schedule—
(a)“box junction” means the area of carriageway marked with yellow cross-hatching at a junction between two or more roads on which there has been placed the road marking shown in diagram 1043 or 1044
^^Good question^^
I don't know the answer. However, I may have found a better argument.
If the OP's PCN was issued by TfL, which I believe it will have been, he needs to check the wording very carefully.
Why? Because it appears to be issuing defective ones - http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=1122...
They have been doing this for over 6 years! See Tovey v TfL Case Reference 2110335439.
It can be found on the Statutory Register. Nor is it the only one: see the above link.
If beggars belief that TfL has not corrected its error for so long.
Most people fall down on challenging PCNs because they use the wrong tactics.
Research is crucial: Google is your friend.
Make sure you use the correct ground in your appeal. Picking a wrong one will lead to failure.
I don't know the answer. However, I may have found a better argument.
If the OP's PCN was issued by TfL, which I believe it will have been, he needs to check the wording very carefully.
Why? Because it appears to be issuing defective ones - http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=1122...
They have been doing this for over 6 years! See Tovey v TfL Case Reference 2110335439.
It can be found on the Statutory Register. Nor is it the only one: see the above link.
If beggars belief that TfL has not corrected its error for so long.
Most people fall down on challenging PCNs because they use the wrong tactics.
Research is crucial: Google is your friend.
Make sure you use the correct ground in your appeal. Picking a wrong one will lead to failure.
stemll said:
Surprised no one else has commented on this. Does it not have to be at the junction of two or more roads in order to be a box junction? Where is the second road, surely one road cannot be a junction?
Schedule 19 of The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002
Interpretation of Part II of Schedule
6. In this Part of this Schedule—
(a)“box junction” means the area of carriageway marked with yellow cross-hatching at a junction between two or more roads on which there has been placed the road marking shown in diagram 1043 or 1044
The TSRGD 2002 have been replaced by the TSRGD 2016. A box junction is now defined as:-Schedule 19 of The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002
Interpretation of Part II of Schedule
6. In this Part of this Schedule—
(a)“box junction” means the area of carriageway marked with yellow cross-hatching at a junction between two or more roads on which there has been placed the road marking shown in diagram 1043 or 1044
TSRGD 2016 said:
(6) For the purposes of this paragraph “box junction” means an area of the carriageway where the marking has been placed and which is—
(a)at a junction between two or more roads;
(b)at a gyratory system or roundabout;
(c)along a length of a two-way road (other than at a junction), the carriageway of which is not greater than 4.5 metres wide at its narrowest point; or
(d)on the length of road adjacent to the vehicular entrance to the premises of a fire, police or ambulance station
Cat(a)at a junction between two or more roads;
(b)at a gyratory system or roundabout;
(c)along a length of a two-way road (other than at a junction), the carriageway of which is not greater than 4.5 metres wide at its narrowest point; or
(d)on the length of road adjacent to the vehicular entrance to the premises of a fire, police or ambulance station
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedu...
Part 7 Section 11 for anyone who wants to find subsection (6).
Part 7 Section 11 for anyone who wants to find subsection (6).
Was going to chip in with the wording of the legislation but its already been mentioned, but additionally the OP cant have been forced to stop by stationary vehicles because he could turn right down the side road or even cross the broken white line and overtake everything. Also its not a junction.
Filthy council biting the hand that feeds again.
Filthy council biting the hand that feeds again.
I lost one of these cash cow scams in Islington. Gave it a bloody good go too as a I got undertaken by a car that was illegally in the bus lane to my left and that nipped in around me and took my exit spot - so I had my arse in the box as that car took my anticipated space (albeit I was inconveniencing no one of course and well clear of the junction). Naturally no dice as there are £££'s to be made. I now sit with caution often with a few hoots behind me to boot!
I hate defeatism and being wronged to milk my wallet, but make the decision based on how you value your time and effort. Could 3 hours of resentful anger be best spent with the kids in the park? Remember fair play isn't in their mindset just absolutes about exact rules bolstered by turnover...
Now go get the robbing b
ds!!!!
I hate defeatism and being wronged to milk my wallet, but make the decision based on how you value your time and effort. Could 3 hours of resentful anger be best spent with the kids in the park? Remember fair play isn't in their mindset just absolutes about exact rules bolstered by turnover...
Now go get the robbing b
ds!!!!Cat said:
The TSRGD 2002 have been replaced by the TSRGD 2016. A box junction is now defined as:-
I stand corrected TSRGD 2016 said:
(6) For the purposes of this paragraph “box junction” means an area of the carriageway where the marking has been placed and which is—
(a)at a junction between two or more roads;
(b)at a gyratory system or roundabout;
(c)along a length of a two-way road (other than at a junction), the carriageway of which is not greater than 4.5 metres wide at its narrowest point; or
(d)on the length of road adjacent to the vehicular entrance to the premises of a fire, police or ambulance station
Cat(a)at a junction between two or more roads;
(b)at a gyratory system or roundabout;
(c)along a length of a two-way road (other than at a junction), the carriageway of which is not greater than 4.5 metres wide at its narrowest point; or
(d)on the length of road adjacent to the vehicular entrance to the premises of a fire, police or ambulance station
Ken Figenus said:
I lost one of these cash cow scams in Islington. Gave it a bloody good go too as a I got undertaken by a car that was illegally in the bus lane to my left and that nipped in around me and took my exit spot - so I had my arse in the box as that car took my anticipated space (albeit I was inconveniencing no one of course and well clear of the junction). Naturally no dice as there are £££'s to be made. I now sit with caution often with a few hoots behind me to boot!
Did you take it to an adjudicator? If so, were you aware of the Essoo case which covered that exact scenario (someone cutting in to take your clear exit space)?Adjudicators' decisions are non binding but the original refusal was reviewed and overturned by a panel of 3* in October 2013 which makes it quite persuasive.
* Messrs Wilkinson, Burke, and Moore
When TPTB don't follow the rules that Parliament has set down people need to know how to fight back and what ammo is available.
Red Devil said:
Did you take it to an adjudicator? If so, were you aware of the Essoo case which covered that exact scenario (someone cutting in to take your clear exit space)?
Adjudicators' decisions are non binding but the original refusal was reviewed and overturned by a panel of 3* in October 2013 which makes it quite persuasive.
* Messrs Wilkinson, Burke, and Moore
When TPTB don't follow the rules that Parliament has set down people need to know how to fight back and what ammo is available.
The camera positions just didn't back up my story mate as they were 'after the event'. I did take it to PATAS and got the video but it didnt help. Adjudicators' decisions are non binding but the original refusal was reviewed and overturned by a panel of 3* in October 2013 which makes it quite persuasive.
* Messrs Wilkinson, Burke, and Moore
When TPTB don't follow the rules that Parliament has set down people need to know how to fight back and what ammo is available.
The entry point to the junction from Islington Green northbound is by now two lanes for all traffic and the bus lane by Barclays Bank on left deleted. Cunningly at the exit of the box junction northbound however one of the two entry lanes immediately turns into a bus lane causing a pinch point and much invoicing of those with no prior knowledge of this trap... The traffic lights just on exit further seal this deal. They could be green as you set off for the junction but have gone red as you fail to clear!!! Utter contempt for the non local motorist. Rotters.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/impossib...
Edited by Ken Figenus on Thursday 7th September 12:27
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