Tax evasion, fraud or theft (of a plastic bag)?
Discussion
(so) I bought some stuff at the supermarket and used a single use carrier bag, normally I don't so when i got to the end i am pretty sure I clicked 0 bags out of habit, paid and left.
As i was walking through the car park i realised this and it got me wondering, I took something without paying for it, so that's theft but the supermarket was perfectly happy to give them away for free until the government started imposing the charges.
I've seen it come up on plenty of receipts as a government levy, but the money doesn't go to the government, so they are not the victim here, so really a victimless crime unless you count the polar bears and given i was already definitely taking the bag i doesn't matter to them if i have the 5p or the supermarket, if anything they are more likely to do harm with it than I am.
But i also wondered, assuming it was not tax evasion, might it have been fraud? Did i steal the 5p bag, or did i manipulate thier computer into charing me 5p less than i should have for the goods i was purchasing? That could be fraud, maybe even a bit of computer misuse thrown in.
If it was fraud does the fact it was unintentional make it not a crime? What about when I became aware of my deception and did nothing about it?
I was thinking of asking what about if I threw 5p on the ground in the car part to resolve the situation, but I think I've probably already wasted more than enough of people's time if they've read this far.
As i was walking through the car park i realised this and it got me wondering, I took something without paying for it, so that's theft but the supermarket was perfectly happy to give them away for free until the government started imposing the charges.
I've seen it come up on plenty of receipts as a government levy, but the money doesn't go to the government, so they are not the victim here, so really a victimless crime unless you count the polar bears and given i was already definitely taking the bag i doesn't matter to them if i have the 5p or the supermarket, if anything they are more likely to do harm with it than I am.
But i also wondered, assuming it was not tax evasion, might it have been fraud? Did i steal the 5p bag, or did i manipulate thier computer into charing me 5p less than i should have for the goods i was purchasing? That could be fraud, maybe even a bit of computer misuse thrown in.
If it was fraud does the fact it was unintentional make it not a crime? What about when I became aware of my deception and did nothing about it?
I was thinking of asking what about if I threw 5p on the ground in the car part to resolve the situation, but I think I've probably already wasted more than enough of people's time if they've read this far.
It could be fraud but it can only be fraud if you did it knowingly so in your case no, but in theory if you knew that you had taken 2 bags and then pressed 0 it could be fraud as you have made a false representation with a view to a gain - where the 5 p goes is irrelevant under that offence
ging84 said:
(so) I bought some stuff at the supermarket and used a single use carrier bag, normally I don't so when i got to the end i am pretty sure I clicked 0 bags out of habit, paid and left.
As i was walking through the car park i realised this and it got me wondering, I took something without paying for it, so that's theft but the supermarket was perfectly happy to give them away for free until the government started imposing the charges.
I've seen it come up on plenty of receipts as a government levy, but the money doesn't go to the government, so they are not the victim here, so really a victimless crime unless you count the polar bears and given i was already definitely taking the bag i doesn't matter to them if i have the 5p or the supermarket, if anything they are more likely to do harm with it than I am.
But i also wondered, assuming it was not tax evasion, might it have been fraud? Did i steal the 5p bag, or did i manipulate thier computer into charing me 5p less than i should have for the goods i was purchasing? That could be fraud, maybe even a bit of computer misuse thrown in.
If it was fraud does the fact it was unintentional make it not a crime? What about when I became aware of my deception and did nothing about it?
I was thinking of asking what about if I threw 5p on the ground in the car part to resolve the situation, but I think I've probably already wasted more than enough of people's time if they've read this far.
Have you considered setting the questions for the Police Promotion Exams? As i was walking through the car park i realised this and it got me wondering, I took something without paying for it, so that's theft but the supermarket was perfectly happy to give them away for free until the government started imposing the charges.
I've seen it come up on plenty of receipts as a government levy, but the money doesn't go to the government, so they are not the victim here, so really a victimless crime unless you count the polar bears and given i was already definitely taking the bag i doesn't matter to them if i have the 5p or the supermarket, if anything they are more likely to do harm with it than I am.
But i also wondered, assuming it was not tax evasion, might it have been fraud? Did i steal the 5p bag, or did i manipulate thier computer into charing me 5p less than i should have for the goods i was purchasing? That could be fraud, maybe even a bit of computer misuse thrown in.
If it was fraud does the fact it was unintentional make it not a crime? What about when I became aware of my deception and did nothing about it?
I was thinking of asking what about if I threw 5p on the ground in the car part to resolve the situation, but I think I've probably already wasted more than enough of people's time if they've read this far.
I would suggest simple Theft as although you originally left without paying you didn't realise until later at which point you decided to keep the item so the 'appropriation' occurs at that time & the rest of the definition falls into place & the offence is complete.
"3“Appropriates”.
(1)Any assumption by a person of the rights of an owner amounts to an appropriation, and this includes, where he has come by the property (innocently or not) without stealing it, any later assumption of a right to it by keeping or dealing with it as owner."
I would also suggest it's not Fraud as you claim forgetfulness & no intention at the time you pressed the 0 bags button.
As ever, I stand to be corrected by our learned colleagues!
paintman said:
Have you considered setting the questions for the Police Promotion Exams?
I would suggest simple Theft as although you originally left without paying you didn't realise until later at which point you decided to keep the item so the 'appropriation' occurs at that time & the rest of the definition falls into place & the offence is complete.
"3“Appropriates”.
(1)Any assumption by a person of the rights of an owner amounts to an appropriation, and this includes, where he has come by the property (innocently or not) without stealing it, any later assumption of a right to it by keeping or dealing with it as owner."
I would also suggest it's not Fraud as you claim forgetfulness & no intention at the time you pressed the 0 bags button.
As ever, I stand to be corrected by our learned colleagues!
Yep, just a simple case of theftI would suggest simple Theft as although you originally left without paying you didn't realise until later at which point you decided to keep the item so the 'appropriation' occurs at that time & the rest of the definition falls into place & the offence is complete.
"3“Appropriates”.
(1)Any assumption by a person of the rights of an owner amounts to an appropriation, and this includes, where he has come by the property (innocently or not) without stealing it, any later assumption of a right to it by keeping or dealing with it as owner."
I would also suggest it's not Fraud as you claim forgetfulness & no intention at the time you pressed the 0 bags button.
As ever, I stand to be corrected by our learned colleagues!
Edited by Bigends on Sunday 17th June 12:29
I want the OP's life.
If this is all he has to think about it must be lovely.
P.S. Don't share your thoughts or your mis-deeds with your missus re: the carrier bag.
If she shoves it under the sink for future use (or even if she bins it), she'll be handling.
Repent. Go back and pay for it. And then go straight to confession.
If this is all he has to think about it must be lovely.
P.S. Don't share your thoughts or your mis-deeds with your missus re: the carrier bag.
If she shoves it under the sink for future use (or even if she bins it), she'll be handling.
Repent. Go back and pay for it. And then go straight to confession.
untakenname said:
Got called up on this in Tecos Covent garden, security guard stopped me at the exit as the till minder signalled him.
Had a bannana in the bag so was exempt, told the bag minder to get a life.
The retailer does not need to charge if the bag contains certain items (solely).Had a bannana in the bag so was exempt, told the bag minder to get a life.
But they still can if they want to.
Buying a banana does not entitle you to a free bag.
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