991 Gt3 Engines
Discussion
If its a 991.1 then there is a 10 year warranty on the engine, G series engines are latest but there are multiple revisions even in G series. Some of us are still on E1 engines with no issues.
Buy the car, rev it to 9k, if the issues arises Porsche will see you right.
A certain forum warrior will be along shortly to tell you the warranty is only for ten years and you would be mad to buy one.
Regards
Fred
Buy the car, rev it to 9k, if the issues arises Porsche will see you right.
A certain forum warrior will be along shortly to tell you the warranty is only for ten years and you would be mad to buy one.
Regards
Fred
I'll offer a different view as expected above ;-)
The launch issues are different to the current issues.
there have been 4 or 5 v of the 991.1 engine and imo it's still a risk, but you have a 10 year engine warranty.
The "G" engines are still failing. but a 10 year warranty is cheaper than recalling every car again world wide.
Did the "G" fix the "finger followers" issue ? who knows, they say a "G" is fixed !
My self I would not go near one as I think all will wear and misfire in time putting the engine into limp mode, but if you do want a 991.1 get a "G" spec engine.
I think as the engines are so expensive what will happen when you try and sell one closer to the 10 year warranty run out period !
ATM they look very expensive to me for a 5 year old car as it stands, would I want one after 7 years old ! nope
So you might be ok buying a "G" spec now and selling in 2 years before they tank lol because boy when it gets close to 10 years these things will not be selling and the price gap to the 991.2 will be far too close to ever choose a 991.1 in a few years time.
Any one with a E or F spec needs to do 20k miles and spank the arse off it and break it for a G spec one as after 8 years no ones going to be buying a E /F spec engine car.
Also , go drive one, the EPS is not all that on that model and it's Auto only, so not that great a car to start with even if the engines were ok.
The launch issues are different to the current issues.
there have been 4 or 5 v of the 991.1 engine and imo it's still a risk, but you have a 10 year engine warranty.
The "G" engines are still failing. but a 10 year warranty is cheaper than recalling every car again world wide.
Did the "G" fix the "finger followers" issue ? who knows, they say a "G" is fixed !
My self I would not go near one as I think all will wear and misfire in time putting the engine into limp mode, but if you do want a 991.1 get a "G" spec engine.
I think as the engines are so expensive what will happen when you try and sell one closer to the 10 year warranty run out period !
ATM they look very expensive to me for a 5 year old car as it stands, would I want one after 7 years old ! nope
So you might be ok buying a "G" spec now and selling in 2 years before they tank lol because boy when it gets close to 10 years these things will not be selling and the price gap to the 991.2 will be far too close to ever choose a 991.1 in a few years time.
Any one with a E or F spec needs to do 20k miles and spank the arse off it and break it for a G spec one as after 8 years no ones going to be buying a E /F spec engine car.
Also , go drive one, the EPS is not all that on that model and it's Auto only, so not that great a car to start with even if the engines were ok.
Edited by Porsche911R on Tuesday 5th February 17:07
Porsche911R said:
I'll offer a different view as expected above ;-)
The launch issues are different to the current issues.
there have been 4 or 5 v of the 991.1 engine and imo it's still a risk, but you have a 10 year engine warranty.
The "G" engines are still failing. but a 10 year warranty is cheaper than recalling every car again world wide.
Did the "G" fix the "finger followers" issue ? who knows, they say a "G" is fixed !
My self I would not go near one as I think all will wear and misfire in time putting the engine into limp mode, but if you do want a 991.1 get a "G" spec engine.
I think as the engines are so expensive what will happen when you try and sell one closer to the 10 year warranty run out period !
ATM they look very expensive to me for a 5 year old car as it stands, would I want one after 7 years old ! nope
So you might be ok buying a "G" spec now and selling in 2 years before they tank lol because boy when it gets close to 10 years these things will not be selling and the price gap to the 991.2 will be far too close to ever choose a 991.1 in a few years time.
A bit like anything with a Porsche badge on it, someone, somewhere will come up with a fix for whatever affliction affects the 991.1 GT3 engines, irrespective of what letter of the alphabet we get too !!The launch issues are different to the current issues.
there have been 4 or 5 v of the 991.1 engine and imo it's still a risk, but you have a 10 year engine warranty.
The "G" engines are still failing. but a 10 year warranty is cheaper than recalling every car again world wide.
Did the "G" fix the "finger followers" issue ? who knows, they say a "G" is fixed !
My self I would not go near one as I think all will wear and misfire in time putting the engine into limp mode, but if you do want a 991.1 get a "G" spec engine.
I think as the engines are so expensive what will happen when you try and sell one closer to the 10 year warranty run out period !
ATM they look very expensive to me for a 5 year old car as it stands, would I want one after 7 years old ! nope
So you might be ok buying a "G" spec now and selling in 2 years before they tank lol because boy when it gets close to 10 years these things will not be selling and the price gap to the 991.2 will be far too close to ever choose a 991.1 in a few years time.
I very much doubt Porsche have stopped monitoring the failures/faults and claims that are developing with the engine, so there maybe more parts/fixes to come from them yet still.
Would I buy a Gen 1 991 GT3 at 7 years old ? definitely, three years is along time and lot of happy/dull (depending on your perspective of the 991 GT3 and PDK 'boxes) miles spent behind the wheel.
Personally if I'd got that sort of money to stick into a "toy" I'd go the extra mile and buy something red, Italian, mid-engined with a N/A V8 and 570hp ...
Slippydiff said:
Personally if I'd got that sort of money to stick into a "toy" I'd go the extra mile and buy something red, Italian, mid-engined with a N/A V8 and 570hp ...
I bought a 458 Italia recently albeit in Grigio Silverstone and it is a fantastic drive. Its quicker than my 991.2GT3 PDK which means even more so than the gen 1 GT3..It rides better and steers like a ballistic missile once you get used to the super responsive steering..Its also got a pretty much bombproof reputation(leaking dampers aside) compared to the 991.1GT3,Its also got 75lb/ft more torque coupled with lower gearing makes it a better road car than the GT3 IMO.
I love it to bits although it costs a fair chunk more to buy in the first place..This will be more than offset with higher future values as its a dead cert future classic unlike the newer 488 IMHO..
Porsche have stated between only 5 - 10% of 991.1 GT3's are effected by finger follower engine issues. See the full comprehensive done to death thread on Rennlist.
If you are unlucky enough to be in the 5 - 10% of effected cars and have an issue you are covered with a free warranty for 10 years and get a new engine. You can then further extend your warranty with Porsche for around £1250 a year for up to 15 years which also covers the engine and whole car if you want to.
It is thought by the time 10 / 15 years is up, if your car hasn't shown any issues it is highly unlikely you are going to have any anyway.
There have also been threads on Rennlist with engine failures in the 991.1 RS and 991.2 GT3 so no model is immune - at least you get a free warranty with the 991.1
If you are unlucky enough to be in the 5 - 10% of effected cars and have an issue you are covered with a free warranty for 10 years and get a new engine. You can then further extend your warranty with Porsche for around £1250 a year for up to 15 years which also covers the engine and whole car if you want to.
It is thought by the time 10 / 15 years is up, if your car hasn't shown any issues it is highly unlikely you are going to have any anyway.
There have also been threads on Rennlist with engine failures in the 991.1 RS and 991.2 GT3 so no model is immune - at least you get a free warranty with the 991.1
As co-founder of the "GT3 World Wide Action Group" (google it) back in 2014 on this issue with Sunil lets be clear here.
I used my 991 GT3 on the track from 2014-2017 (sold in May 2017) and required three engines. E, F and G1. I believe the car has subsequently had a fourth G6 engine fitted....
The issue with the MA175 engine (and this applies to the variants in the 911R and 991.1 GT3RS) is an architectural one. The hydraulic tappets "pump down" when run above 86-700 rpm for sustained periods. This in turn means that the pressure that the finger follower is contacting the cam lobe with is varying in pressure. This variance creates bruising on the DLC coating on the finger follower whih eventually scabs and falls away allowing the steel cam lobe to start scoring the folloers pad. The ECU on these cars measures individual cyclinder timing and will put the car in limp mode should the tollerance be exceeded.
PAG tried addressing this with DLC coated cam lobes to meet the metal hardness of the already DLC finger followers and ally the bruising. They also tried new software with each engine interation (F and G) to regulate a higher oil pressure to try and feed the hyraulic tappets more oil. Later they tried extra oil galleries in the G series heads to help again with feeding more oil but unfortunately these measures mean that certain cyclinder valve train recieved more oiling than other cylinders. the issue is occuring in the high 8700-9000 rpm range.
I ran my car in Sport Auto mode on the track for three seasons (the program shifts at 9000 rpm so I guess on the average 6 session track day I was hitting the limiter over 400 times a day). You can do the math over 10-20 track days....
For the 991.1 GT3RS they tried a new method to erradicate the issue. They reduced the max RPM to 8800 (but only in 1st gear so they could claim the headline number!). The engine then brings the maximum rpm down incrimentally to approx 8650 in top gear! they also incorporated the DLC coated cam lobes and the additional oil galleries of the G series engine heads. Whilst issues with the 991.1 GT3RS engines are much rarer, they have still occured in instances where the car has been used in Sport Auto mode repeatedly at the track although data points here are very hard to establish.
For the 911R they opted to get even more conservative with a 8600 hard limiter! This should in theory eliminate the issue as with a manual box its very difficult to shift above 8400 on track in the heat of the moment without hitting the limiter in any case.
The 10 year warranty is a band aid. The engine was re-designed with solid lifters in the 991.2 variant and these were a direct result of the Cup car test program after the weakness was identified in the 3.8 road cars MA175 engine. The 3.8 was a 'toe in the water' excerise which lead to the 4.0L engine we see in the 911.2 GT3/RS and Cup cars today.
Personally I would have no issue in buying a 991.1 GT3 if the price were right and I was not using the car extensively on the track in sport auto mode. Short shifting in manual mode would reduce the issue womewhat. The issues are only occuring due to oiling at the high end of the RPM rage which is rarely breached on the road in any case.
However if I (as I am) using the car primarily for 15 or so full and hard track days a year I would look to either accept that I will likely need at least one warranty engine replacement during my tenure (and I would be sure to sell before the 10 year mark) or else I would pay the extra and opt for the 991.2 with the revised 4.0L engine.
All that being said its also early days for the 4.0L engie in the 991.2 variants although at this time i have no reason to believe the issue above exists (technically the solid lifters have addressed this and also benefited the engine by allowing a lower oil pressure to be used and this less parasitic losses due to less work for the oil pump and less draw on teh crank).
I used my 991 GT3 on the track from 2014-2017 (sold in May 2017) and required three engines. E, F and G1. I believe the car has subsequently had a fourth G6 engine fitted....
The issue with the MA175 engine (and this applies to the variants in the 911R and 991.1 GT3RS) is an architectural one. The hydraulic tappets "pump down" when run above 86-700 rpm for sustained periods. This in turn means that the pressure that the finger follower is contacting the cam lobe with is varying in pressure. This variance creates bruising on the DLC coating on the finger follower whih eventually scabs and falls away allowing the steel cam lobe to start scoring the folloers pad. The ECU on these cars measures individual cyclinder timing and will put the car in limp mode should the tollerance be exceeded.
PAG tried addressing this with DLC coated cam lobes to meet the metal hardness of the already DLC finger followers and ally the bruising. They also tried new software with each engine interation (F and G) to regulate a higher oil pressure to try and feed the hyraulic tappets more oil. Later they tried extra oil galleries in the G series heads to help again with feeding more oil but unfortunately these measures mean that certain cyclinder valve train recieved more oiling than other cylinders. the issue is occuring in the high 8700-9000 rpm range.
I ran my car in Sport Auto mode on the track for three seasons (the program shifts at 9000 rpm so I guess on the average 6 session track day I was hitting the limiter over 400 times a day). You can do the math over 10-20 track days....
For the 991.1 GT3RS they tried a new method to erradicate the issue. They reduced the max RPM to 8800 (but only in 1st gear so they could claim the headline number!). The engine then brings the maximum rpm down incrimentally to approx 8650 in top gear! they also incorporated the DLC coated cam lobes and the additional oil galleries of the G series engine heads. Whilst issues with the 991.1 GT3RS engines are much rarer, they have still occured in instances where the car has been used in Sport Auto mode repeatedly at the track although data points here are very hard to establish.
For the 911R they opted to get even more conservative with a 8600 hard limiter! This should in theory eliminate the issue as with a manual box its very difficult to shift above 8400 on track in the heat of the moment without hitting the limiter in any case.
The 10 year warranty is a band aid. The engine was re-designed with solid lifters in the 991.2 variant and these were a direct result of the Cup car test program after the weakness was identified in the 3.8 road cars MA175 engine. The 3.8 was a 'toe in the water' excerise which lead to the 4.0L engine we see in the 911.2 GT3/RS and Cup cars today.
Personally I would have no issue in buying a 991.1 GT3 if the price were right and I was not using the car extensively on the track in sport auto mode. Short shifting in manual mode would reduce the issue womewhat. The issues are only occuring due to oiling at the high end of the RPM rage which is rarely breached on the road in any case.
However if I (as I am) using the car primarily for 15 or so full and hard track days a year I would look to either accept that I will likely need at least one warranty engine replacement during my tenure (and I would be sure to sell before the 10 year mark) or else I would pay the extra and opt for the 991.2 with the revised 4.0L engine.
All that being said its also early days for the 4.0L engie in the 991.2 variants although at this time i have no reason to believe the issue above exists (technically the solid lifters have addressed this and also benefited the engine by allowing a lower oil pressure to be used and this less parasitic losses due to less work for the oil pump and less draw on teh crank).
Edited by Macca993 on Tuesday 5th February 21:41
Having gotten excited by the relatively cheap .1s, the engine issue put me off buying one. As the 10 year mark approaches, i expect alot more buyers will be put off. In the end, I paid significantly more for the .2, not because its newer, but simply because i did not want to risk owning a .1 car that may suddenly become very difficult to sell.
imycool said:
Having gotten excited by the relatively cheap .1s, the engine issue put me off buying one. As the 10 year mark approaches, i expect alot more buyers will be put off. In the end, I paid significantly more for the .2, not because its newer, but simply because i did not want to risk owning a .1 car that may suddenly become very difficult to sell.
The interesting thing is that many of the 991.1 GT3 sold are to folk who dont hang around forums so know no different from what the OPC selling the car is telling them (or not as the case may be). If the car has passed a Porsche Extended Warranty inspection and been given a futrher few years of cover the dealers dont feel oblidged to tell them anything about the history of their purchase. A point in case is my old car. the new owner knew nothing of the fact it had had three engines and a new set of calipers - he never even asked and he knew nothing of the history of 991 GT3 engine issues!I think once the cars fall outside of the main dealer network, extended warranty program and are priced at a point where enthusiasts are attracted to them over the next 5 years that is when the stigma will start to develop. Of course that assumes PAG havent made any mistakes with the 991.2 4.0L unit.
When you look at history PAG have a reputation for being superlative engineers but their cars sinsce 1999 have had a malady of design related issues such as porous bores, IMS bearing failures, Intake plenium flap ingestion (997 4.0L RS), gearbox failures (GT4), pistoon wrist pin failures (early E engine 991.1 GT3) and valvetrain design failures (991.1 GT3/RS). These have not affected thousands of cars but thens of thousands if not more.
The key is to go in eyes wide open, the 991.1 GT3/RS engine issues are not a 5% or 10% thing - they will affect ALL cars at some point if driven to redline (and afterall the big boast and difference for the 991 GT3 was indeed the 9000 rpm limit which is most usefull on the track where the car was designed to be used to its design brief).
Im always amazed when the Italians can build a new engine every generation of 430/58/88 etc and seem to produce high specific outputs with relatively littel failure rate - although to be fair their engines are engineered to be reliable for less KMs and their cars seems to be rarely driven, let alone to the limits on track like the GT3, RS etc.
Edited by Macca993 on Wednesday 6th February 01:41
Great info Macca 993. Sounds like 991.1 GT3 is worth avoiding if you intend to track the car.
Like you said, chalk it up on the s
tty Porsche engineering from the late 90s list. Oh you also forgot 3rd gear regularly breaking on GT4s and 997 4.0 RS being recalled in the UK for defective crank bearings.
Like you said, chalk it up on the s
tty Porsche engineering from the late 90s list. Oh you also forgot 3rd gear regularly breaking on GT4s and 997 4.0 RS being recalled in the UK for defective crank bearings.imycool said:
Having gotten excited by the relatively cheap .1s, the engine issue put me off buying one. As the 10 year mark approaches, i expect alot more buyers will be put off. In the end, I paid significantly more for the .2, not because its newer, but simply because i did not want to risk owning a .1 car that may suddenly become very difficult to sell.
That 10yr mark is four years away for the earliest cars.....as you say will become a big factor, I would imagine it’ll really start to impact on values in a couple of years. Of course you can extend the official warranty and keep that going up until a car is 15 years old but who knows what that will cost once the factory warranty on the engine disappears...I imagine it’ll be expensive. Gassing Station | 911/Carrera GT | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff