Road Markings associated with speed limits - help needed
Discussion
Hi.
Can anyone definitively tell me (and direct me to the proof) of how long the road markings should be, for a 40mph dual carriage way:
a) Standard, I.e. non warning
b) Warning
Also, am I right in thinking that if a road is posted as a 40mph but the lines are showing 60mph then any speed tickets are invalid as the road is not leagaly marked?
Many (many!) thanks,
Simon.
Can anyone definitively tell me (and direct me to the proof) of how long the road markings should be, for a 40mph dual carriage way:
a) Standard, I.e. non warning
b) Warning
Also, am I right in thinking that if a road is posted as a 40mph but the lines are showing 60mph then any speed tickets are invalid as the road is not leagaly marked?
Many (many!) thanks,
Simon.
Well, you live and learnPer my little yellow book "KNOW YOUR TRAFFIC SIGNS" und published by the DfT 
It give example of lane lines with the short - - -
Und the centre line ist a little longer __ __ __
Und the hazard one ist ____ ____ ____
Und one other could be ___ ___ ___
___________ with a solid for the other side of road.
Und a serious one the double whites....
It has nothing to do with speed though you might see "advisory rectangle" und "S L O W" painted on road as opposed to a lolly rimmed red
Real clue ist in lamposts und repeaters
Und I am foreign
You Englisch!
my little yellow book on page 44 said:
Various lane markings are used. As a general rul the more emphatic the line marking the greater the hazard
It give example of lane lines with the short - - -
Und the centre line ist a little longer __ __ __
Und the hazard one ist ____ ____ ____
Und one other could be ___ ___ ___
___________ with a solid for the other side of road.
Und a serious one the double whites....
It has nothing to do with speed though you might see "advisory rectangle" und "S L O W" painted on road as opposed to a lolly rimmed red
Real clue ist in lamposts und repeaters
Und I am foreign
You Englisch! No. That's not the full story.
See:
www.abd.org.uk/speed_limit_signs.htm#markings
I'm unclear as to the correct markings for a 40mph dual carraige way limit.
Simon (English)
See:
www.abd.org.uk/speed_limit_signs.htm#markings
I'm unclear as to the correct markings for a 40mph dual carraige way limit.
Simon (English)
At the detailed level, road markings are affected by speed limit, visibility, road type, road width and a multitude of other things.... and there is (supposed to be) a fixed definition for each combination.
Try here www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_roads/documents/page/dft_roads_610051.pdf
Section 4 Longitudinal Lines - it's a ballache to work through, but I *think* you want diagram 1005/1005.1 and tables 4-2 and 4-5
And if that's not hard enough to work through, www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/20023113.htm is "The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002".
Trawl through this looking for the appropriate road marking type, and the appropriate diagrams are at the end - think you might want Schedule 6 diagram 1013.1
I'm English (not that that matters) and a (insert DailyMail shriek here) consultant for the DfT.
edited to add a nice smiley for Wildcat
>> Edited by bigandclever on Wednesday 31st May 20:33
Try here www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_roads/documents/page/dft_roads_610051.pdf
Section 4 Longitudinal Lines - it's a ballache to work through, but I *think* you want diagram 1005/1005.1 and tables 4-2 and 4-5
And if that's not hard enough to work through, www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/20023113.htm is "The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002".
Trawl through this looking for the appropriate road marking type, and the appropriate diagrams are at the end - think you might want Schedule 6 diagram 1013.1
I'm English (not that that matters) and a (insert DailyMail shriek here) consultant for the DfT.
edited to add a nice smiley for Wildcat
>> Edited by bigandclever on Wednesday 31st May 20:33
ooops! 
Did not mean.. Ach.. !
Ist just that as we have lot of family from overseas visiting und despite being married to a very English gentleman ( though Mad Doc ist fiercely a downright Yorkshireman und
proud of it... 
).. we are aware of "Know Your Traffic Signs" und per the book - line markings denote the level of the hazard und you can have solid whites on NSL.. too. Ist to do with the hazard - but this ist to make aware of potential und adjust if need be. If a serious hazard - they would surely have a "lolly"
Did not mean.. Ach.. !
Ist just that as we have lot of family from overseas visiting und despite being married to a very English gentleman ( though Mad Doc ist fiercely a downright Yorkshireman und
proud of it... ).. we are aware of "Know Your Traffic Signs" und per the book - line markings denote the level of the hazard und you can have solid whites on NSL.. too. Ist to do with the hazard - but this ist to make aware of potential und adjust if need be. If a serious hazard - they would surely have a "lolly" WildCat said:
ooops!
Did not mean.. Ach.. !
Ist just that as we have lot of family from overseas visiting und despite being married to a very English gentleman ( though Mad Doc ist fiercely a downright Yorkshireman und
S'OK, I only learned about it today, though I knew about the lines before.
A serious hazzard would, of course, have a camera, not a "lolly."
Shame on you
reAnimate said:
ooops!
Did not mean.. Ach.. !
Ist just that as we have lot of family from overseas visiting und despite being married to a very English gentleman ( though Mad Doc ist fiercely a downright Yorkshireman und
S'OK, I only learned about it today, though I knew about the lines before.
A serious hazzard would, of course, have a camera, not a "lolly."
Shame on you
Nein -- serious hazard .. has nothing.
Safe area... has :rolleyes .. Revenue Raider
the LAYOUT of white lines (ie the angle of taper of central islands, etc) can vary according to the speed of traffic...
The TYPE of white lines (ie the lengths of individual lines and the spacing between them etc) is not dependent on the speed limit.
If I understand the original question correctly, then the answer is that you can't tell what the speed limit is by looking at the white lines
The TYPE of white lines (ie the lengths of individual lines and the spacing between them etc) is not dependent on the speed limit.
If I understand the original question correctly, then the answer is that you can't tell what the speed limit is by looking at the white lines
reAnimate said:Interesting link, but you know, although there are obviously legal distances etc etc for road markings, (there has to be for obvious reasons,) it is the posted limit which the driver should observe as indicating the maximum speed of the road he is on. But incorrect road markings may be enought to "get you off", even if you remembered the different distances etc on road markings, it would be totally useless to you as you drive down the road, short of getting out and measuring them.
No. That's not the full story.
See:
www.abd.org.uk/speed_limit_signs.htm#markings
I'm unclear as to the correct markings for a 40mph dual carraige way limit.
Simon (English)
I can't see this one flying in court. If the initial limit sign or the repeaters are not in good order, then I can see that working, but not line lengths as they will all be permitted variations in TSRGD, with nly guidance from DfT about what length they are. It will be a similar point to repeater distances. There are DfT guidelines, but the legal positions is only that they need to be "regularly" placed for enforcement.
WildCat said:
ooops!
Did not mean.. Ach.. !
Ist just that as we have lot of family from overseas visiting und despite being married to a very English gentleman ( though Mad Doc ist fiercely a downright Yorkshireman und
S'OK, I only learned about it today, though I knew about the lines before.
A serious hazzard would, of course, have a camera, not a "lolly."
Shame on you
Nein -- serious hazard .. has nothing.
Safe area... has :rolleyes .. Revenue Raider
Doh!
I live just up the road from where I got stung, so measuring is not an issue (traffic permitting!)
This bit to me is key:
"Where a speed limit is changed from above 40mph to 40mph or less (or vice versa), the highway authority has an obligation to amend any road markings that exist to comply with the requirements of the new speed limit. In some cases this may require extensive burning-off of old markings and replacement with correct ones. It is likely that many authorities fail to do this, either due to ignorance of the legal requirements or in order to save money. If challenged, they cannot rely on the savings provisions in regulation 3, since the old markings would still have been illegal for the new speed limit under previous versions of TSRGD.
All three types of marking described above are required, under Schedule 17 (item 12) and regulation 31 of TSRGD, to be of reflectorised material.
Not all roads have centre line markings, especially minor and residential roads, but where markings are provided they must comply with the requirements set out above."
bigandclever said:
At the detailed level, road markings are affected by speed limit, visibility, road type, road width and a multitude of other things.... and there is (supposed to be) a fixed definition for each combination.
Try here www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_roads/documents/page/dft_roads_610051.pdf
Section 4 Longitudinal Lines - it's a ballache to work through, but I *think* you want diagram 1005/1005.1 and tables 4-2 and 4-5
And if that's not hard enough to work through, www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/20023113.htm is "The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002".
Trawl through this looking for the appropriate road marking type, and the appropriate diagrams are at the end - think you might want Schedule 6 diagram 1013.1
I'm English (not that that matters) and a (insert DailyMail shriek here) consultant for the DfT.
edited to add a nice smiley for Wildcat
>> Edited by bigandclever on Wednesday 31st May 20:33
P.S. Ta! Perfect.
There are two kinds of speed limits: default speed limits; and speed limits by virtue of a traffic regulation order (TRO).
The first of these are nice and simple and exist only when a TRO and appropriate road signs have not been placed (signs includes road markings). If there are streetlights, then the speed limit is 30mph, even on motorways. If there are no streetlights, then it is 70mph on motorways and dual carriageways, 60mph on Single carriageways.
Incidentally, if street lighting is present, a TRO and signing is required to either apply a speed limit higher than 30mph, or derestrict to the speed limit to 70mph on motorways and duals and 60mph on singles. There are a significant number of lit sections of motorway where the speed limit is legally 30mph
Anyway, the second, by virtue of a TRO, is more complex. When it is decided to introduce a speed limit a TRO is prepared in accordance with the Road Traffic Act. This states the extents of the limit in the terms "100m from point abc" or whatever. It is then advertised in accordance with statute and, if no one objects, is "made". Although the order now exists, it does not come in to force until all signs are implemented.
*All* signs *must* comply with the TSRGD. And here's the clincher - there are quite a few locations where the signs do not and you would get off speeding if you contested it. Get your tape measure out
The first of these are nice and simple and exist only when a TRO and appropriate road signs have not been placed (signs includes road markings). If there are streetlights, then the speed limit is 30mph, even on motorways. If there are no streetlights, then it is 70mph on motorways and dual carriageways, 60mph on Single carriageways.
Incidentally, if street lighting is present, a TRO and signing is required to either apply a speed limit higher than 30mph, or derestrict to the speed limit to 70mph on motorways and duals and 60mph on singles. There are a significant number of lit sections of motorway where the speed limit is legally 30mph
Anyway, the second, by virtue of a TRO, is more complex. When it is decided to introduce a speed limit a TRO is prepared in accordance with the Road Traffic Act. This states the extents of the limit in the terms "100m from point abc" or whatever. It is then advertised in accordance with statute and, if no one objects, is "made". Although the order now exists, it does not come in to force until all signs are implemented.
*All* signs *must* comply with the TSRGD. And here's the clincher - there are quite a few locations where the signs do not and you would get off speeding if you contested it. Get your tape measure out
Theoretically. Has anyone a case where white-lignage was used to successfully use a statutory S85 defence to a speeding charge?
I suspect the mags would hold that the limit signs and repeaters were sufficient for the purpose of providing guidance that a limit was in force.
Furthermore, since the longitudinal road markings (lane and hazard lines) are not mentioned in the General Directions (7) -- signs only to be placed where there is a statutory prohibition in place, but the speedlimit signs are, I think the prosecution would argue that the obligation to provide adequate guidance was complete.
A reminder of RTRA S85(1)
"For the purpose of securing that adequate guidance is given to drivers of motor vehicles as to whether any, and if so what, limit of speed is to be observed on any road, it shall be the duty of the Secretary of State, in the case of a trunk road, to erect and maintain the prescribed traffic signs in such positions as may be requisite for that purpose"
I suspect the mags would hold that the limit signs and repeaters were sufficient for the purpose of providing guidance that a limit was in force.
Furthermore, since the longitudinal road markings (lane and hazard lines) are not mentioned in the General Directions (7) -- signs only to be placed where there is a statutory prohibition in place, but the speedlimit signs are, I think the prosecution would argue that the obligation to provide adequate guidance was complete.
A reminder of RTRA S85(1)
"For the purpose of securing that adequate guidance is given to drivers of motor vehicles as to whether any, and if so what, limit of speed is to be observed on any road, it shall be the duty of the Secretary of State, in the case of a trunk road, to erect and maintain the prescribed traffic signs in such positions as may be requisite for that purpose"
reAnimate said:
No. That's not the full story.
See:
www.abd.org.uk/speed_limit_signs.htm#markings
I'm unclear as to the correct markings for a 40mph dual carraige way limit.
Simon (English)
Please accept my apologies.
If you look at TSGD this gives an indication of what the lines mean as follows:
Sign 1005 -( dotted white line for want of a better word): Division of carriageway into traffic lanes on the part of the carriageway where vehicles normally proceed in the same direction on roads with a speed limit of 40mph or less other than at places where the marking shown in diagram 1004 is used.
Sign 1005.1 as above but where the speed limit of more than 40mph
Sign 1004: (Hazard line FWOABW)) vehicular traffic on roads with a speed limit of 40mph or less should not cross or straddle the line unless it is safe to do so and when the line is used in conjunction with the sign 967 (cycle lane route) motor vehicles should not enter a cycle lane unless that lane is clear of pedal cycles.
Sign 1004.1. As 1004 on roads with a speed limit of 40mph or more.
Whereas 670 mentions specificallly speed limit.
Further the road markings appear in the Regs under that heading and not under the Regulatory signs.
Is that not an argument that lines alone cannot nullify a speed limit?
Sign 10O4 would appear to be toothless in forming an offence of straddling. I have never heard of anybody being prosecuted for that offence. Neither does it mention within the regs that it is an offence to do so unlike double white lines.
dvd
Sign 1005 -( dotted white line for want of a better word): Division of carriageway into traffic lanes on the part of the carriageway where vehicles normally proceed in the same direction on roads with a speed limit of 40mph or less other than at places where the marking shown in diagram 1004 is used.
Sign 1005.1 as above but where the speed limit of more than 40mph
Sign 1004: (Hazard line FWOABW)) vehicular traffic on roads with a speed limit of 40mph or less should not cross or straddle the line unless it is safe to do so and when the line is used in conjunction with the sign 967 (cycle lane route) motor vehicles should not enter a cycle lane unless that lane is clear of pedal cycles.
Sign 1004.1. As 1004 on roads with a speed limit of 40mph or more.
Whereas 670 mentions specificallly speed limit.
Further the road markings appear in the Regs under that heading and not under the Regulatory signs.
Is that not an argument that lines alone cannot nullify a speed limit?
Sign 10O4 would appear to be toothless in forming an offence of straddling. I have never heard of anybody being prosecuted for that offence. Neither does it mention within the regs that it is an offence to do so unlike double white lines.
dvd
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